Debit Card fees spreading across the country!

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Originally Posted By: Pablo
Have you read all the Durbin rules? Some have zero to do with protecting the consumer.


Another example of excessive and unneeded legislation.

There ought to be a law!
 
B of A tried sneaking two fees through on me so far this year.

Both appeared on my online statements without prior warning. I also get printed statements, read them, and open all my mail.

Walked into their branch each time, both fees got waived.

I don't see how they can change their terms without advance warning.

I'm okay with a little bank regulation, seeing how we the people own decent shares of the business now that we bailed them out. I'm even okay with... slightly more.
laugh.gif
 
Bank's fees are increasing and credit card cash-back/reward is decreasing. Shell Master Card from Citi Bank had unlimited 5% cash back for buying Shell gas for 7-8 years, now heavily limited and with minimum purchase each month.
 
What really amazes me is the fact that some of politicians are bent on the destruction of the capitalist system. They have villinised and besmirched the very cornerstones of the American system itself.

A lot of the fees banks charged were to penalize those customers who didn’t play by the rules e.g. kiting checks and overdrawing their accounts. These politicians saw another group of abused underclass that doesn’t play by the rules that are in need protection from penalties (seems to be a common thing these days) imposed by these mean bankers.

What’s next reducing the fines for speeding and other violations because some people can’t afford to pay them? These arrogant self appointed do-gooders and protectors of the citizenry and downtrodden have taken an axe to capitalism and left their filthy fingerprints all over the handle.
They know full well the unwashed masses will automatically go right after the banks, Wall Street, the oil companies, etc even when the evidence of who really did the dirty deed is staring them right in the face.

These politicians are well aware that America has been dumbed down and more and more of its citizens are satisfied with a 6 pack and a football game or reality TV show, it lulls them to sleep at the switch. IMHO its time to wake up out of the coma and throw their tired backsides out and let America get back to work and its businesses start making money and real profits again.
 
Simple answer here. Credit Union. Very few fees, reasonable interest rates on loans. I closed all my Wells Fargo accounts recently and now do 100 percent of my banking with my local Credit Union. Couldn't be happier.
 
I've been with the Publix Employees Credit Union since I was 15 years old and never thought about using a 'traditional' bank for my money.
 
Originally Posted By: Trav
A lot of the fees banks charged were to penalize those customers who didn’t play by the rules e.g. kiting checks and overdrawing their accounts.


At the risk of iring people with yet another Oz annecdote, the fees charged down here are on everything that they can imagine...and predominantly to customers who are doing the right thing, and not doing the "naughty" stuff that you stated.

Introduction of ATMs, they introduced $1 charge to use a human teller.
Then a $2 to use a "foreign" (non brand) ATM.
Then $1 per transaction, with 8 free transactions per month.
Then a waiver of transaction fees provided you kept the min balance on the account at $5,000...at 0.1% interest (effectively a $20/month account fee when they were paying 5% term deposits).

Credit Unions ?
Mine introduced $1 per cheque, payable when the book is issued, and they issued me 3 in advance. Then started playing the same games as in first para. Their excuse was that people wanted the credit unions to be more like banks...they ended up just like banks, but with worse interest rates.
 
Chase tried to pull some nonsense with me a few years ago, I forget exactly what now but at the time it [censored] me off. So I simply closed all my accounts, and paid off my Chase CC and left it at a $0 balance. To this day I still get junk mail from them trying to get me back.

More customers need to smarten up and treat big banks like the POS institutions they are and maybe they will stop this fee nonsense.
 
Im annoyed as I was a Commerce Bank customer and had no fees whatsoever. TD Bank took over and have slowly crept fees and minimums. Now I cant get $$$ at the no-fee ATMs at places like Wawa.

Thing is, that was just a small, local then semi-regional bank.

Then again, I guess TD is very big/international.
 
Originally Posted By: dwendt44
Bank of America paid no income tax for last year.

Credit Unions are the way to go.


I challenge you to name a credit union, any credit union that paid $1 of income tax last year.

Yes, fees suck but just remember if your employer had to rely on a credit union to finance their business you would not have a job.
 
Originally Posted By: Trav
What really amazes me is the fact that some of politicians are bent on the destruction of the capitalist system. They have villinised and besmirched the very cornerstones of the American system itself.

A lot of the fees banks charged were to penalize those customers who didn’t play by the rules e.g. kiting checks and overdrawing their accounts. These politicians saw another group of abused underclass that doesn’t play by the rules that are in need protection from penalties (seems to be a common thing these days) imposed by these mean bankers.

What’s next reducing the fines for speeding and other violations because some people can’t afford to pay them? These arrogant self appointed do-gooders and protectors of the citizenry and downtrodden have taken an axe to capitalism and left their filthy fingerprints all over the handle.
They know full well the unwashed masses will automatically go right after the banks, Wall Street, the oil companies, etc even when the evidence of who really did the dirty deed is staring them right in the face.

These politicians are well aware that America has been dumbed down and more and more of its citizens are satisfied with a 6 pack and a football game or reality TV show, it lulls them to sleep at the switch. IMHO its time to wake up out of the coma and throw their tired backsides out and let America get back to work and its businesses start making money and real profits again.


I have no problem with penalty for overdraft, but some of these ridiculous charges to avoid fee just [censored] me off:

Wells Fargo need you to have both checking and saving with 7500 total and direct deposit and transaction each month.

The banks can do what they want, true, but they have to face the consequence of people moving to other banks as they are not satisfied instead of whining about it and blame the government. Hint: it ain't helping even if I do not abuse the system, they need to man up and admit that they lose a lot of money in the packaged bad debt deal and need to grab cash everywhere.
 
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Im annoyed as I was a Commerce Bank customer and had no fees whatsoever. TD Bank took over and have slowly crept fees and minimums. Now I cant get $$$ at the no-fee ATMs at places like Wawa.

Thing is, that was just a small, local then semi-regional bank.

Then again, I guess TD is very big/international.


They know people hate big banks. So they start up cutesy little "local" banks with free checking accounts to hook people with the ultimate goal of selling out five years down the road.

Since the big bank paid for your head, there would be no more satisfying revenge than closing your account the following month.

This debit card fee thing strikes me as oligopoly-style follow-the-leader pricing, like airline tickets, that do not really need to make any sense or follow any event like that new law. Even Walmart does this with random price increases: "Oh, it's inflation"-- if we swallow it and accept it, they win. We're already primed to blame a third party: politicians, immigrants, whatever, so if they can shift blame they come out smelling like roses.
 
I bank at a small Home town bank that has been in business since 1910. I've had my accounts there since 1943. I get free checking and have for years and years. I asked them a few days ago about debit card fees and was toldthey have no intension to start charging fees for its use or ownership.

Just another reason for me to stay.
 
Originally Posted By: Trav
What really amazes me is the fact that some of politicians are bent on the destruction of the capitalist system. They have villinised and besmirched the very cornerstones of the American system itself.

A lot of the fees banks charged were to penalize those customers who didn’t play by the rules e.g. kiting checks and overdrawing their accounts. These politicians saw another group of abused underclass that doesn’t play by the rules that are in need protection from penalties (seems to be a common thing these days) imposed by these mean bankers.

What’s next reducing the fines for speeding and other violations because some people can’t afford to pay them? These arrogant self appointed do-gooders and protectors of the citizenry and downtrodden have taken an axe to capitalism and left their filthy fingerprints all over the handle.
They know full well the unwashed masses will automatically go right after the banks, Wall Street, the oil companies, etc even when the evidence of who really did the dirty deed is staring them right in the face.

These politicians are well aware that America has been dumbed down and more and more of its citizens are satisfied with a 6 pack and a football game or reality TV show, it lulls them to sleep at the switch. IMHO its time to wake up out of the coma and throw their tired backsides out and let America get back to work and its businesses start making money and real profits again.


Travis, thank you. This is the best post ever on this forum.
 
X a million. You can always tell someone who is responsible for their own income. Thanks Trav.

Of all the [censored] to be passed recently the Dodd-Frank bill is among the worst legislation I've seen.
 
I was so mad when I saw on the news that Bank of America would be charging $5.00 a month for debit card use. As soon as it comes into effect I will either no longer be using my debit card or changing banks. I love how they for some reason need more money and we have to pay for it. Thanks.
 
This is an excellent piece by Bill Black pertaining the larger banking issues. ZERO sympathy for bankers.



Quote:
By William K. Black

The systemically dangerous institutions (SDIs) are inaccurately called "too big to fail" banks. The administration calls them "systemically important," and acts as if they deserve a gold star. The ugly truth, however, is what Wall Street and each administration screams when the SDIs get in trouble. They warn us that if a single SDI fails it will cause a global financial crisis. There are roughly 20 U.S. SDIs and about the same number abroad. That means that we roll the dice 40 times a day to see which SDI will blow up next and drag the world economy into crisis. Economists agree that the SDIs are so large that they are grotesquely inefficient. In "good times," therefore, they harm our economy. It is insane not to shrink the SDIs to the point that they no longer hold the global economy hostage. The ability -- and willingness -- of the CEOs that control SDIs to hold our economy hostage makes the SDIs too big to regulate and prosecute. It also allows them to extort, dominate, and degrade our democracies. The SDIs pose a clear and present danger to the U.S. and the world.




It takes a global effort against the SDIs because they constantly put nations in competition with each other in order to generate a "race to the bottom." We are always being warned that if the U.S. adopts even minimal regulation of its SDIs they will flee to the City of London or be unable to compete with Germany's "universal" banks. The result of the race to the bottom, however, as Ireland, Iceland, the UK, and U.S. all experienced is that we create intensely criminogenic environment that creates epidemics of "control fraud." Control fraud -- frauds led by CEOs who use seemingly legitimate entities as "weapons" to defraud -- cause greater financial losses than all other forms of property crime -- combined. Because of the political power of the SDIs and the destruction of effective regulation these fraudulent SDIs now commit endemic fraud with impunity.

Effective financial regulation is essential if markets are to work. Regulators have to serve as the "cops on the beat" to keep the fraudsters from gaining a competitive advantage over honest firms. George Akerlof, the economist who identified and labeled this perverse ("Gresham's") dynamic was awarded the Nobel Prize in 2001 for his insight about how control fraud makes market forces perverse.

“[D]ishonest dealings tend to drive honest dealings out of the market. The cost of dishonesty, therefore, lies not only in the amount by which the purchaser is cheated; the cost also must include the loss incurred from driving legitimate business out of existence.” George Akerlof (1970).

One of the most perceptive observers of humanity recognized this same dynamic two centuries before Akerlof.

"The Lilliputians look upon fraud as a greater crime than theft. For, they allege, care and vigilance, with a very common understanding, can protect a man’s goods from thieves, but honesty hath no fence against superior cunning. . . where fraud is permitted or connived at, or hath no law to punish it, the honest dealer is always undone, and the knave gets the advantage." Swift, J. Gulliver’s Travels

We are the allies of honest banks and bankers. We are their essential allies, for only effective regulation permits them to exist and prosper. Think of what would happen to banks if we took the regular cops off the beat and stopped prosecuting bank robbers. That's what happens when we take the regulatory cops off the beat. The only difference is that it is the controlling officers who loot the bank in the absence of the regulatory cops on the beat. It is the anti-regulators who are the enemy of honest banks and bankers.

Top criminologists, effective financial regulators, and Nobel Laureates in economics have confirmed that epidemics of control fraud, such as the FBI warned of in September 2004, can cause financial bubbles to hyper-inflate and drive catastrophic financial crises. Indeed, the FBI predicted in September 2004 that the developing "epidemic" of mortgage fraud would cause a financial "crisis" if it were not stopped. It grew massively after 2004. The fraudulent SDIs (who were far broader than Fannie and Freddie, indeed, they only began to dominate the secondary market in sales of fraudulent loans after 2005) ignored the FBI and industry fraud warnings for the most obvious of reasons -- they were leaders the frauds. The ongoing U.S. crisis was driven overwhelmingly by fraudulent "liar's" loans. Studies have shown that the incidence of fraud in liar's loans is 90% (MBA/MARI 2006) and that by 2006 roughly one-third of all mortgage loans were liar's loans (Credit Suisse 2007). Rajdeep Sengupta, an economist at the Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis, reported in 2010 in an article entitled “Alt-A: The Forgotten Segment of the Mortgage Market” that:

"etween 2003 and 2006 … subprime and Alt-A [loans grew] 94 and 340 percent, respectively. The higher levels of originations after 2003 were largely sustained by the growth of the nonprime (both the subprime and Alt-A) segment of the mortgage market."

Sengupta's data greatly understate the role of “Alt-A” loans (the euphemism for “liar’s loans”) for they ignore the fact that by 2006 half of the loans called “subprime” were also liar’s loans (Credit Suisse: 2007). It was the massive growth in fraudulent liar’s loans that hyper-inflated and greatly extended the life of the bubble, producing the Great Recession. The growth of fraudulent loans rapidly increased, rather than decreased, after government and industry anti-fraud specialists warned that liar's loans were endemically fraudulent. No one in the government ever told a bank that it had to make or purchase a "liar's" loan. No honest mortgage lender would make liar's loans because doing so must cause severe losses. Criminologists, economists aware of the relevant criminological and economics literature on control fraud, and a host of investigations have confirmed the endemic nature of control fraud in the ongoing U.S. crisis.

But the banking elites that led these frauds have been able to do so with impunity from prosecution. Take on federal agency, the Office of Thrift Supervision (OTS). During the S&L debacle, the OTS made well over 10,000 criminal referrals and made the removal of control frauds from the industry and their prosecution its top two priorities. The agency's support and the provision of 1000 FBI agents to investigate the cases led to the felony conviction of over 1,000 S&L frauds. The bulk of those convictions came from the "Top 100" list that OTS and the FBI created to prioritize the investigation of the worst failed S&Ls. In the ongoing crisis -- which caused losses 40 times larger than the S&L debacle, the OTS made zero criminal referrals, the FBI (as recently as FY 2007) assigned only 120 agents nationally to respond to the well over one million cases of mortgage fraud that occurred annually, and the OTS' non-effort produced no convictions of any S&L control frauds. OTS' sister agencies, the Fed and the OCC, have the same record of not even attempting to identify and prosecute the frauds. The FDIC was better, but still only a shadow of what it was in fighting fraud in the early 1990s. If control frauds can operate with impunity from criminal prosecutions, then the perverse Gresham's dynamic is maximized and market forces will increasingly drive honest banks and firms from the marketplace.

The Financial Crisis Inquiry Commission reported on the results of the Great Recession that was driven by this fraud epidemic:

"As this report goes to print, there are more than 26 million Americans who are out of work, cannot find full-time work, or have given up looking for work. About
four million families have lost their homes to foreclosure and another four and a half million have slipped into the foreclosure process or are seriously behind on their
mortgage payments. Nearly $11 trillion in household wealth has vanished, with retirement accounts and life savings swept away. Businesses, large and small, have felt the sting of a deep recession."

It is the fraudulent SDIs that are the massive job killers and wealth destroyers. It is the Great Recession that the fraudulent SDIs produced that caused most of the growth in the federal deficits and made the fiscal crises in our states and localities acute. The senior officers that led the control frauds are the opposite of the "productive class." No one, without the aid of an army, has ever destroyed more wealth and dreams than the control frauds. It is essential to hold them accountable, to help their victims recover, and to end their ongoing frauds and corruption that have crippled our economy, our democracy, and our nation.
 
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Im annoyed as I was a Commerce Bank customer and had no fees whatsoever. TD Bank took over and have slowly crept fees and minimums. Now I cant get $$$ at the no-fee ATMs at places like Wawa.

Thing is, that was just a small, local then semi-regional bank.

Then again, I guess TD is very big/international.


TD is a conservative bank. They did not participate in the Wall St. frenzy like the other SID's.

I don't see how anyone can not be disgusted by Wall St and the parasitic effect they have had on the economy.

Quote:
Liar’s loans were a terrible deal from the borrower’s perspective – they had to pay a premium yield to borrow. Borrowers who took liar’s loans were not typically poor, but they were typically had relatively low levels of financial sophistication. Before we begin a finer level of analysis we should focus on the larger picture.

Liar’s loans not only drove the crisis, they also serve as a superb “natural experiment” that allows us to test many of the most important hypotheses about the causes of the crisis. Liar’s loans are useful in this regard because never mandated that any the lenders make liar’s loans. Instead, the government repeatedly criticized liar’s loans. As I develop below, lenders:


Knew from the beginning that the liar’s loans would cause (net) catastrophic losses
Soon learned that the loans were endemically fraudulent
Could have stopped the endemic fraud, “adverse selection,” and “negative expected value” at any time by engaging in prudent underwriting, but instead
Rapidly expanded their issuance of liar’s loans after they knew the loans were endemically fraudulent
Sold the fraudulent liar’s loans through fraudulent “reps and warranties.”



Liar’s loans allow us to test, for example, whether Fannie and Freddie purchased nonprime loans because they were mandated to do so by government mandates or because Fannie and Freddie were accounting control frauds purchasing the nonprime assets because their superior (nominal) yield maximized the controlling officers’ compensation. (Hint: Fannie and Freddie were control frauds.)


Great isn't it? Liar loans were created by banks.
 
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