Dead Battery Recovery (6A -> Battery Minder Plus)

[gathermewool]

My car sat at the airport while I was on travel for the past couple of weeks - started fine when I get back. I almost never turn the interior light on in my Civic, but I guess I was pretty jet-lagged and ended up doing just that This was late Saturday night.

Fast forward to this morning. When I turned the key all of the interior lights and indicators on the dash turned off, though the starter actually whirred a couple of times, very slowly, despite the low charge.

Information:

Car: 2008 Civic LX (R18)
Batt: Autocraft Gold 51R
Age: 3-4 years
RC: 85 Min

6A Charge: 6.5 hrs
1A Smart Charge: < 30 min
Float Smart Charge: Last 15 minutes and continuing

Details:

At the start of the charging event, one cell plate was exposed. I know you're not supposed to add water prior to charging (especially a dead batter,) but I wanted to know how low the cell was, so I added only enough to cover the plate, which was a minuscule amount.

I then hooked up my Schumacker SE-82-6 and charged the battery at 6A for ~6.5 hours. After 6.5 hours, the charge indicator (ammeter) was reading ~2A and 100% charged, and each cell was gassing (small bubbles forming.) All cell water levels had risen.

I didn't mark the voltage at the 6.5 hours point, but I believe it was between 14-15VDC (on the high end). When switched to 2A, the charge indicator lowered to nil and the voltage settled out at ~ 13.88VDC, at which point I unplugged the A/C and disconnected the charge.

I then had to start my vehicle and move it to a better location - it ran for no more than 5 minutes. Once repositioned I turned off the car and left the lights on for a full minute to remove the surface charge, before hooking up my Battery Minder Plus 12117.

The Battery Minder green indicator remained solid for
Anyway, the battery was discharged for more than a day (I didn't drive the car at all Sunday,) which I'm sure isn't good for the battery, but it now appears to be fully charged. I'm not battery guru, but I know some of you are, so I'm looking for a critique on what I did and guidance on what I should do to mitigate any sulfation and degradation of the battery.

I know I'm over-thinking this, because I told people at work what happened (all engineers) and none of them would have thought to do anything more than jump the car and let it run for a little while (e.g., 30 minutes.) I know most people do the bare minimum when it comes to maintenance and have very few issues, but that's not how I'm wired, for better or worse.

 

[901Memphis]

Sounds like treated it the best you could. At this point i would stop worrying about it and hope for the best.

 

[gathermewool]

You're probably right, 901Memphis. Unless someone here smarter than me tells me otherwise, I plan to leave the BatteryMinder hooked up over night and that's it. I'll unplug it in the morning and not do anything more (except worry about it each time I start the car for the next week or so.)

For further reference, the battery has never been discharged in the past. I don't stop and listen to the radio or run anything else while the car is off. The car only ever sit for more than a few days when I'm on travel, which is only a couple of times per year; otherwise, the car is used for my 30-mile round-trip commute every single weekday.

 

[901Memphis]

Yes the battery minder can be hooked up as long as you like, if the voltage drops too low it will kick back on.

The only thing i would do is make sure you have a backup option like cables or jump box incase it dies on you in the upcoming weeks, otherwise it should be okay.

If you have an auto parts store locally with a good load tester i might get it tested, because at 3-4 years and being a Honda it could be near the end of it's life anyway.

 

[razel]

You mentioned there was exposed plates. It's done. Just buy a new one. It won't be worth the bother.

However if you insist, what some battery re-refurbishers do to re-enliven a battery is to dump the acid, put distilled water in, charge at the max charge rate and stop when it reaches ~120F. Let it cool off and repeat until the specific gravity stops increasing. Dump that water and repeat again until the specific gravity stop increasing. After it's done, put the right mix of sulfuric acid and distilled water back in.

Of course most of us won't want to do that, but you still can do the overcharge until 120F or specific gravity maxes out charge cycle to rejunevate your own battery. I did once. 6 year old battery lasted another 2 years, but I learned. I'm not doing that again. I'd rather just buy a new battery.

 

[Chris142]

You can't charge a battery if the electrolyte and water are below the plates

 

[gathermewool]

The holes in this tiny battery make it very hard to see the anything but the top of the plate, which was moist, but did not seem to have water covering it. I added a very small amount of distilled and the plate was immediately covered by water.

I park in a paid lot with half of the spots being rented by guys in my department, working all hours and both 1st and 2nd shift, so I should be covered, should I need a jump. I also park 10' away from a mechanic's shop. Finally, if worse comes to worst, my wife can pick me up and take me to buy a new battery. There's an AA, AZ, and Walmart within 5 minutes of where I work.

Finally, based on the dozen or so people I've known who have had batteries be drained and/or be in various states of PM (plates potentially exposed) last a year to several years longer, why would what I've described necessitate a battery replacement immediately? I'm sure I've caused permanent damage, but batteries see pretty light duty in my area, and especially in my car, which never sits in traffic or see elevated temps, and has never been discharged before.

 

[JHZR2]

Just putting the car to "on" position pulls a lot of load. Add a start and short use and you won't charge it all the way. An alternator never truly/optimally charges the battery anyway.

Plus, a charger goes through its algorithms when reconnected or unplugged anyway. The end of charge is when the battery pulls like 0.05A at 14.7V, but it starts out really low and the decay is quite slow.

Is the battery damaged? Yes. Irreversibly? Probably. Is the lost capacity huge? Only one way to find out and that's to apply s fixed and small load and see how many ampere hours you get out. That's tough to do though.

I'd probably routinely charge it for a while and keep the charger on it especially on really cold winter nights, then replace it in anticipation of next winter.

 

[cat843]

The proper tests are a load test of 50% of the CCA and a test with a Midtronics like tester.

It should be fully charged before you run the load test.

 

[wrcsixeight]

The great thing about wet batteries is one can test the electrolyte, rather than just guess that their chargers are doing what their marketing teams claim they can do.

http://www.amazon.com/OTC-4619-Professional-Battery-Hydrometer/dp/B0050SFVHO

If only a few drops were required to cover the plates on the one cell when it was completely dead, the plate was likely not exposed when it was charged.

The hydrometer can tell you if the battery is fully charged, but it cannot tell you definitively the condition of the battery as one could still achieve 1.275+ on all cells, and achieve a resting voltage of 12.7+, and still have a battery fail a minor load test. but if a battery has a cell which is significantly lower than the others and does not respond to charging sources, It is a good indicator that no more effort is worth being expended on the battery.

Just as a healthy steady resting voltage after a full charge is not indicative of a good battery, but a resting voltage which falls quickly is an indicator of a failing battery.

I view every engine start as a load test. I watch my digital voltmeter while cranking overnight cold and see how low it goes, and account for temperature.

A true capacity test is not easy to perform accurately, as battery temperature must be controlled, and the load at which the battery earned its Ah rating applied, and kept even as battery voltage goes from ~12.8 to 10.5.

A healthy fully charged 100 AH battery can power a 5 amp load for 20 hours before voltage drops to 10.5v which is considered 100% discharged. Loads over 5 amps will reduce overall capacity the 100AH battery can give and loads under 5 amps will increase the total capacity the battery has to give.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peukert%27s_law

But often starting batteries will not list capacity in the standard 20 hour rate, only CCA and perhaps reserve capacity.

The actual capacity test is hard on a battery, especially a starting battery with its thin porous fragile plates required for those high CCA figures that make most consumers wet their pants.

It really helps to know the amperage flowing at a certain voltage when charging in the 80%+ charged range. Generally when amps taper to 2 to 3% of capacity at absorption voltage( mid14's), then the battery is in the 99 to 100% charged range, but an AGM battery this figure is 0.5% of capacity at absorption voltage, and an AGM battery can come to a hard stop, requiring less than 0.05amps to maintain any voltage under 15.5v.

Maintenance free flooded/wet batteries can also come to a hard stop amperage wise at absorption voltage when fully charged.

It helps to know the Specific gravity when a battery was new fully charged and healthy and then be able to compare it to when aged too. Same with amps required to maintain absorption voltage, as as the battery ages it requires more amperage to maintain absorption voltage, and absorption voltage will also have to be held longer before specific gravity maxes out.

 

[gathermewool]

Thanks for all of the advice guys.

To clarify about the cell that was low on electrolyte: I checked and added maybe 5 mL of fluid prior to commencing charging.

Also, the battery may be 3-4 years old, but it rarely sits for more than a couple of days, is driven 10+ miles each time 99% of the time, and I never sit with the engine off and anything on for any period of time.

The battery voltage was 12.75VDC, just after driving home, disconnecting, and carrying it to the basement (I know, doesn't mean much, especially since it may have had most of its surface charge remaining, right?) The battery is on the minder now and will be on it each night this week. I'll also keep it on over the entire weekend.

This may sound like sacrilege, but having done what I did and doing what I plan to do (based BITOG advice) is 100% more than 99% of the population would do, and I think I'm ok. With what I have, though, is there anything else you'd recommend (e.g., more charging at higher rates using my Schumacker vice the minder, etc.)

 

[wrcsixeight]

YOu did the right thing regarding the low cell, just enough to cover the plates then fully recharge, then fill to 1/8" below the 'arms' hanging into the cell.

After refilling low cells, the Specific gravity will read low and voltage will drop for a while until a couple charge cycles and some agitation.

Removing the battery nightly to charge inside is way more effort than I'd go through.

Basically, if you want to know more about this battery, you need to be able to see the amp flow at absorption voltage (mid 14's) and see the specific gravity on cells.

Before removing from vehicle I'd turn the lights on for a minute and then quickly hook up the 6 amp charger and let that go through its algorithm where it seeks mid 14's initially, holds it for some period, then drops to float/maintenance voltages.

A maintainer is not designed to fully charge a battery, merely keep a fully charged one, fully charged. Can it do the task? maybee, with enough time. Depends on its voltages it seeks and how much current it can expend seeking those voltages.

 

[gathermewool]

With regard to removing the battery nightly, I came to the same conclusion last night. Since we didn't need two cars today, I left the Civic's battery on the charger overnight and through today. I'll reinstall it before work tomorrow, and then charge it through the weekend. I think that that should be good enough.

Currently, the BatteryMinder Plus is maintaining voltage in float mode at 13.46VDC. Before switching to the BatteryMinder, I bulk-charged at the 6A setting on my Schumacker for 6.5 hrs. At that point, the gage indicated 100% and was at the
As far as further actions to take, are you saying that I should disconnect the minder and re-connect the bulk charger, align my Fluke in series and mark current, and also use a second DMM to mark voltage? Is there any benefit to having only this data, without being able to check the specific gravity?

I'm not sure if the Schumacker has any logic to it. It only has a switch for 6V/6A, 12V/2A, and 12V/6A. As the battery reaches capacity, the amperage lowers.

 

[901Memphis]

He has a manual charger it won't work that way.

If you you need a good automatic charger I know the one I have is great it's a pro Logix PL2320

 

[wrcsixeight]

I would not hook the Fluke inline to measure amperage. It might damage the Fluke as the battery might very briefly demand more amperage then the flukes maximum rating. But the 6 amp charger would also have to be able to exceed its max rating

But with the price of a Fluke, I would not risk it.

Knowing amperage required to maintain that 13.46v would be interesting to know, if one had data to compare it to when the battery was new. How revealing it would be as to battery condition is questionable.

The Hydrometer with temperature compensation is much more enlightening, as is the amperage required to maintain absorption voltage in the mid '14s.

being able to hold absorption voltage until amps decrease to 2 to 3% of battery capacity(20 hr rate) is a pretty good way of knowing when the battery is full or nearly so.

But sometimes an abused battery responds to an Equalization charge, which is a forced overcharge, monitored closely, bringing the battery as high as 16V. Sometimes this is the only way to get the specific gravity to rise on an abused battery, but an EQ charge itself is abusive, but it can restore lost capacity. It can also push a questionable battery over the edge.

 

[gathermewool]

Originally Posted By: 901Memphis
He has a manual charger it won't work that way.

If you you need a good automatic charger I know the one I have is great it's a pro Logix PL2320


That charger does look cool. If my two chargers ever stop working or get dropped I'll look into one of those bad boys. For now, I have the Schumacker for mid-amp charging and the BatteryMinder Plus for maintenance and desulfation (if it even does.)

Originally Posted By: wrcsixeight
I would not hook the Fluke inline to measure amperage. It might damage the Fluke as the battery might very briefly demand more amperage then the flukes maximum rating. But the 6 amp charger would also have to be able to exceed its max rating

But with the price of a Fluke, I would not risk it.

Knowing amperage required to maintain that 13.46v would be interesting to know, if one had data to compare it to when the battery was new. How revealing it would be as to battery condition is questionable.

The Hydrometer with temperature compensation is much more enlightening, as is the amperage required to maintain absorption voltage in the mid '14s.

being able to hold absorption voltage until amps decrease to 2 to 3% of battery capacity(20 hr rate) is a pretty good way of knowing when the battery is full or nearly so.

But sometimes an abused battery responds to an Equalization charge, which is a forced overcharge, monitored closely, bringing the battery as high as 16V. Sometimes this is the only way to get the specific gravity to rise on an abused battery, but an EQ charge itself is abusive, but it can restore lost capacity. It can also push a questionable battery over the edge.



I believe the max amperage for the Fluke 117 I have is 10A. I could probably do the following the mitigate surge amperage and get an accurate amperage reading at the end after the charger has stabilized out:

1. With everything off and disconnected, attach one Fluke lead to one of the charger clamps. Leave the other Fluke lead disconnected and made safe.

2. Attach the charger terminal clamps to the battery and turn the charger on.

3. Firmly touch the second, free Fluke lead to the same battery terminal as the first lead.

4. Carefully disconnect the terminal clamp that has the Fluke lead attached.

What do you guys think? I could also do the same with the BatteryMinder Plus connected, which might be very slightly safer, after it has reached Float Charge mode.

I don't think hydrometers are very expensive, and I could always buy one of the cheapo float-types to get a rough idea.

An equalization charge might cause accelerated corrosion, but I'm not sure a very short period would have more negatives that the possible positive of restoring any lost capacity; however, the lost capacity might be due to sulfation, which may be more gently removed with the BatteryMinder PLus. I have my doubts, though, that this could occur in an overnight or even weekend-long charge, and might take weeks to fully desulfate...again, if it is even capable of it meeting its claims.

 

[gathermewool]

Well, it was -10F when I started my car to head home this morning and the car took 3-4X longer to start than usual, including a few partial starts and stumbles throughout the process. FWIW, this car doesn't like starting in the cold, even with a new battery. I'm wondering if my starter is starting to go...

I'm going to hook the BatteryMinder up after I sleep, so I can get a few hours charge in before going to work tonight.

 

[Robenstein]

Originally Posted By: gathermewool
Well, it was -10F when I started my car to head home this morning and the car took 3-4X longer to start than usual, including a few partial starts and stumbles throughout the process. FWIW, this car doesn't like starting in the cold, even with a new battery. I'm wondering if my starter is starting to go...

I'm going to hook the BatteryMinder up after I sleep, so I can get a few hours charge in before going to work tonight.


Partial starts and stumbles would have nothing to do with the starter.

 

[gathermewool]

Originally Posted By: Robenstein
Originally Posted By: gathermewool
Well, it was -10F when I started my car to head home this morning and the car took 3-4X longer to start than usual, including a few partial starts and stumbles throughout the process. FWIW, this car doesn't like starting in the cold, even with a new battery. I'm wondering if my starter is starting to go...

I'm going to hook the BatteryMinder up after I sleep, so I can get a few hours charge in before going to work tonight.


Partial starts and stumbles would have nothing to do with the starter.


Slow operation of the starter motor, which is the symptom I experienced, would be due to a weak battery, a weak starter, or some poor electrical connection in between.

The battery has been fully discharged only once, recently (the reason for this thread) and the starter works perfectly at normal temperatures (above freezing,) but will slow down in extreme cold (closer to 0F,) even with a brand new battery.

so, 20 hrs ago, when I drove to work, the car started a little more slowly, but engaged immediately (0F.) My commute is ~15 miles of 30-45 MPH roads. This morning, when I left work, it exhibited the slow crank and a couple of almost-starts.

The car still started after maybe 4-5 seconds of cranking, with no pauses.

//

I put it on the Schumacker charger on the 6A setting and, when I checked 30 minutes later, voltage read 16.4VDC. I know this is a rudimentary way of doing things, but the Battery University states that 2.70V/cell (@-4F) is the limit on recharge, which would be 16.2VDC overall, if I'm reading it correctly.

As soon as I saw the 16.4VDC I changed the charger setting from 6A to 2A and the voltage lowered to the low 14's. I'll check it again when it stabilizes. I plan to leave the charger on the 2A setting until I leave in a few hours, unless you guys think otherwise.

I was going to use the BatteryMinder, but it is not temperature compensated, either, and I'm not sure that it would maintain voltage at a high enough float voltage to do any good at these temperatures.

 

[gathermewool]

After 30 minutes on the 2A setting, voltage is at 14.66VDC.

Battery University says 2.45VDC/cell, which is 14.7VDC overall.