Daytime running lamps-Opinions

[RFIRE]

DRL's were mandated in Northern Europe with a specific design requirement. White non-glaring front lights seperate from the amber turn lights and seperate from the headlights. Effective in northern latitudes (with low sun angles and long periods of dawn and dusk.)

GM and others lobied the US Government to let them implement DRL's, but not according to European practice. They wanted to save money by using either amber turn segments or 1/2 brightness high beams. A really dumb idea, but permitted by the US Government and then forced on Canada which has mandated DRL's. A few GM trucks and pickus do it the right way.

Richard

 

[BOBISTHEOILGUY]

since I drive alot I find those lights annoying myself.
the m/c's require to use a head light. alot of people don't pay attention to other cars on the road and pull out no matter what. its up to you the driver of your car to ensure others don't have accidents if others pull out in front of you. only if your tboned you cannot control your car at a accident.

I have a light sensitivity and hate the lights on. I use angle mirrors on my mirrors so I have no blind spot and see cars just fine. the book (drivers hand book) says you don't run 4 lights. I put on my high beam on people that run more than 2 lights. figured if you can't see with 2 lights you might need my lights on too so you might see me.

alot of people use those lights cause they think it's cool. I figure that alot of fog is in their car because the are beating off and all the steam is on the inside of their window not outside. alot of truck drivers are now doing that. those are what we call rookies since they are new to driving. I've even seen where a truck driver stopped the traffic to go across lanes instead of going to the next exit and going around.

 

[Cutehumor]

My drl in my 96 sunfire are 11 yrs old. haven't burned one bulb out yet. I like them actually. people won't turn in front of me because they pause to hate me for running my drl's.

 

[oilyriser]

They make cars more visible in fog and rain, but in those conditions you should switch on the headlights anyways. They consume gasoline, about the same as going from 5w20 to 5w30. LED DRL's would be a good idea.

 

[bdai]

How do they consume gasoline? The alternator's always spinning, regardless of electrical load.

 

[427Z06]

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I put on my high beam on people that run more than 2 lights. figured if you can't see with 2 lights you might need my lights on too so you might see me.

alot of people use those lights cause they think it's cool. I figure that alot of fog is in their car because the are beating off and all the steam is on the inside of their window not outside. alot of truck drivers are now doing that. those are what we call rookies since they are new to driving. I've even seen where a truck driver stopped the traffic to go across lanes instead of going to the next exit and going around.

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That's one of my pet peeves too, people running fog (or auxillary) lights when there's no fog. It's a simple fact that's been measured, that these foglights cause significant additional glare to oncoming drivers. And if they're aftermarket add-ons, they're usually aimed incorrectly for the best effectiveness in fog, thus further blinding oncoming drivers.

 

[Colt45ws]

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How do they consume gasoline? The alternator's always spinning, regardless of electrical load.

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An alternator does indeed put more mechanical load on the engine if there is more electrical load, but I doubt DRLs make any noticable difference.

 

[Carmudgeon]

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That's one of my pet peeves too, people running fog (or auxillary) lights when there's no fog. It's a simple fact that's been measured, that these foglights cause significant additional glare to oncoming drivers. And if they're aftermarket add-ons, they're usually aimed incorrectly for the best effectiveness in fog, thus further blinding oncoming drivers.

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One of the most obnoxious things I've ever encountered on the road was a car that obviously had a HID system grafted into its fog lights, with whatever glare prevention provisions that were in place before removed.

Mind you, this was during daytime with bright sunshine. I can only imagine what kind of glare they subject people to at night.

I'd guess that 90% of the outfits that sell these kinds of garbage retrofits, angel eyes, blue bulbs, gazillion K HID capsules and other automotive lighting paraphernalia on the net don't have any clue as to what photometry is, nor do they care.

Snake oil salesmen of the worst kind, with the kiddies on all the car forums lapping up their garbage and falsehoods.

 

[DracoFelis]

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DRL's were mandated in Northern Europe with a specific design requirement. White non-glaring front lights seperate from the amber turn lights and seperate from the headlights. Effective in northern latitudes (with low sun angles and long periods of dawn and dusk.)

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That's effectively what I got in my 1991 Honda CRX. The 1st position on my light switch turns on all the lights that normally come on with the headlights, but doesn't turn on the headlights themselves. And included among the many "running lights" that come on, are a couple of smaller white lights facing forward (which are physically mounted NEXT TO my actual headlights)! And unlike a lot of American cars, my Honda CRX does NOT turn on the amber turn signal lights in that switch position (so I really do get exactly the lights I have at night, except for the headlights themselves not being on).

The really nifty thing about this, is that I was able to switch all the secondary "running" lights (i.e. all the exterior lights, except for the headlights themselves) over to very energy efficient LEDs (and with most of the bulbs I've replaced, the LED modules are actually BRIGHTER than the stock incandescent bulbs I was replacing). As a result, I can put my "running lights" on (1st light switch position), without the huge current draw of incandescent bulbs. And unlike those "stupid" high beam designs (for daytime lights), simply turning on my secondary lights in the day (especially cloudy days) does make me much more visible at a distance (because lights all around the car are lit, just as they would be at night with my headlights on), but still without having any bright headlights to cause glare for other drivers.

BTW:
For the person who thought the extra electrical load from large lights isn't significant, you might be surprised what "running the numbers" says. The number I heard, is that 800 watts of electrical power is just over 1 horse power of mechanical load, _if_ you had 100% efficiency in all conversions. Since alternators, batteries, engine drive shafts, etc, are all considerably less than 100% efficient, the load on the engine will likely be a lot higher than the theoretical "best case" for efficiency (for any given electrical use).

Now, each high beam is about 65 watts in many vehicles, so a pair of high beams running 1/2 power should also be about 65 watts. Add in any other "running lights" (tail lights, for example) that come on, and you are probably easily over 100 watts. At 100 watts, you are talking about 1/8 of a HP drag, _IF_ you got 100% effeciency on all conversions (but probably closer to 1/3 HP or more of a drag in practice, do to the inefficiencies of making/using electricity in a vehical). Now granted, a fraction of a HP additional load isn't anything huge, but (especially on smaller cars, with low HP needed to drive them down the road) it is a real (and measurable) percentage difference in effort needed by the engine. As a result, that extra drag caused by the alternator needing to supply extra electricity (due to power hungry lights being on), will result in slightly more fuel being used. And with some small vehicals, the effect can be as high as a few percentage points lower fuel economy due to the electrical load. And while this doesn't sound like much, even a 1 or 2 percent difference in fuel economy, is enough to make a (small but) noticeable difference in total costs for gas during the year.

 

[bdai]

Well I stand corrected. I was under the impression that spinning was spinning, but I guess there's some sort of electromagnetic resistance under load?

 

[Colt45ws]

Yes, there is a magnetic resistance. It would be awesome if we could get power by just spinning a shaft. We could use a little engine to power a city!

 

[bdai]

Hah! I call dibs on the patent!

I guess I should've better phrased it as "I guess the resistance actually decreases with load." I thought, for instance, that a 110-amp alternator was always outputting 110 amps, regardless of what was needed.

Oh well, back to DRLs. I like 'em.

 

[Lonnie]

My Volvo has a little screw next to the head light switch that so you turn the DLR's off.

 

[Benzadmiral]

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. . . There are many studied done by non-biased groups (not GM,light bulb mfgs,or safety agendas) that show they are WORSE for safety that nothing, except in places that have long flat highways like the desert west. . . .

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As I understand it, the push for their use came originally from countries with a lot of land north of about 50 deg. north latitude -- countries like Canada and Sweden, who experience early darkness for a good part of the year. Said DRLs might make sense up there. But most of the US gets more than enough flippin' sunlight, thanks to DSN (Daylight Saving Nonsense). DRLs won't help much in such bright conditions.

Besides, the more cars we have with DRLs, the less any individual car will stand out to other drivers -- thus defeating the purpose of making the DRL-equipped cars more visible.

The manufacturer of my car, Mercedes-Benz, has always offered daytime running lights. They're called "headlights," and the owner's manual says to switch them on when visibility is less than optimal. Problem solved.

 

[delta901]

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That's effectively what I got in my 1991 Honda CRX. The 1st position on my light switch turns on all the lights that normally come on with the headlights, but doesn't turn on the headlights themselves. And included among the many "running lights" that come on, are a couple of smaller white lights facing forward (which are physically mounted NEXT TO my actual headlights)! And unlike a lot of American cars, my Honda CRX does NOT turn on the amber turn signal lights in that switch position (so I really do get exactly the lights I have at night, except for the headlights themselves not being on).

The really nifty thing about this, is that I was able to switch all the secondary "running" lights (i.e. all the exterior lights, except for the headlights themselves) over to very energy efficient LEDs (and with most of the bulbs I've replaced, the LED modules are actually BRIGHTER than the stock incandescent bulbs I was replacing). As a result, I can put my "running lights" on (1st light switch position), without the huge current draw of incandescent bulbs. And unlike those "stupid" high beam designs (for daytime lights), simply turning on my secondary lights in the day (especially cloudy days) does make me much more visible at a distance (because lights all around the car are lit, just as they would be at night with my headlights on), but still without having any bright headlights to cause glare for other drivers.

BTW:
For the person who thought the extra electrical load from large lights isn't significant, you might be surprised what "running the numbers" says. The number I heard, is that 800 watts of electrical power is just over 1 horse power of mechanical load, _if_ you had 100% efficiency in all conversions. Since alternators, batteries, engine drive shafts, etc, are all considerably less than 100% efficient, the load on the engine will likely be a lot higher than the theoretical "best case" for efficiency (for any given electrical use).

Now, each high beam is about 65 watts in many vehicles, so a pair of high beams running 1/2 power should also be about 65 watts. Add in any other "running lights" (tail lights, for example) that come on, and you are probably easily over 100 watts. At 100 watts, you are talking about 1/8 of a HP drag, _IF_ you got 100% effeciency on all conversions (but probably closer to 1/3 HP or more of a drag in practice, do to the inefficiencies of making/using electricity in a vehical). Now granted, a fraction of a HP additional load isn't anything huge, but (especially on smaller cars, with low HP needed to drive them down the road) it is a real (and measurable) percentage difference in effort needed by the engine. As a result, that extra drag caused by the alternator needing to supply extra electricity (due to power hungry lights being on), will result in slightly more fuel being used. And with some small vehicals, the effect can be as high as a few percentage points lower fuel economy due to the electrical load. And while this doesn't sound like much, even a 1 or 2 percent difference in fuel economy, is enough to make a (small but) noticeable difference in total costs for gas during the year.

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Ride a bicycle, no HP loses, no need to calculate, no gas to burn, save the earth. DRL cause glare in DAYTIME?

I guess "your kind" of DRL must be 10 milions candlepower.

 

[obbop]

I waited by the bike rack.

Where were you?

 

[TheTanSedan]

I'd like to see intelligent lighting mandated here in the US. I doubt it will happen although it should be part of being a technologically advanced society, a premier economy. The justification is easy enough as so many serious accidents happen in the hour surrounding both dusk and dawn.

That said I've been running my headlights all the time for several years now. Yes, it causes a moments reconsideration for the cretins who change lanes w/o signals, into a minimum of space.

Now, driving a 16,000-lb rig down the highway I wish I had those E-Codes when your typical "college graduate", cell phone glued to her ear is entering the ramp . . . and I've got no where to go. The horn is great, the E-Codes were the cat's meow.

Headlights on for safety works. If I had to replace the lamps as a set twice yearly I wouldn't care.

I'd still like to have what is mentioned above: an engineered system. There are plenty of times here in Texas when cars appear suddenly out of the sun or glare. May not matter to you guys still trapped back in the forest. Out here on the savannah, it does. A solution is in order.

 

[brianl703]

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DRL's were mandated in Northern Europe with a specific design requirement. White non-glaring front lights seperate from the amber turn lights and seperate from the headlights.

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My 2006 Saab 93 just uses the low-beam headlights for DRLs. That's not because it's a US-spec car (it does, after all, have city lights and a rear foglight), all Saab 93s are like that.

I fail to see how running the high beams at 50% power saves any money at all. First, you need a resistor or some sort of PWM controller to accomplish that, which costs money. Just running the low beams at full power is almost free, all that is needed is an inexpensive relay and that may not even be required.

 

[XS650]

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I put on my high beam on people that run more than 2 lights. figured if you can't see with 2 lights you might need my lights on too so you might see me.

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Bob, you're OK

 

[DracoFelis]

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I fail to see how running the high beams at 50% power saves any money at all.

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Well, they might make the lights last longer, but you will still be using several amps of power (i.e. lower fuel economy to generate that extra electrical power) to run them.

Of course, if you run the headlights in series (vs using a resister to lower the voltage), than you will save power vs running the lights at full power. Of course, the headlights will also be dimmer (than full power) in that case as well. And even that setup will be considerably less efficient than other DRL options (such as super bright LED modules).

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Just running the low beams at full power is almost free,

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Ah, no... You are still using the electrical power (and the resulting extra gas needed to generate that electricity) to power those headlights!

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all that is needed is an inexpensive relay and that may not even be required.

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Oh, you mean almost "free" to build the circuit, never mind the hit on fuel economy that running headlights constantly has...

Personally, I think designing "running lights" to use energy efficient LED models, is the way to go. Yes, they are more costly initially, and that extra cost is in addition to the costs of the headlights themselves (as you still need the headlights for night time driving). However, the LEDs should (if properly designed) last the life of the car (and save "wear and tear" on the headlights themselves), and pay for themselves several times over in fuel savings vs using power hungry headlights as "running lights".

Yes, the few amps of power the headlights use won't make a huge difference in fuel economy, but over time even small fuel economy losses can add up. And since electrical power in a car comes from the alternator, and the alternator gets its power from drag on the engine, you really can lower your car's fuel economy just by using extra electricity! And since DRLs run whenever the car is on, saving power on the DRLs also saves power (and therefore fuel) whenever the car is on!