DATASTREAMThe Global Chip Shortage Impact on American Automakers

[Skippy722]

double post

 

[Skippy722]

You can't buy what the manufacturers refuse to sell. Oh and some of them are cagey, they'll put them up on their websites but it is impossible to order them because the dealers claim they cannot. On various car websites for different makes I see many threads about the inability to buy basic models, even by special ordering them, while they are listed on the websites by the mfrs.

Dealers can absolutely order them, they usually won’t unless you put a significant deposit up front because they don’t want to be stuck with a car nobody wants because it’s completely stripped down. My Ram sat on the lot for ~4 months because it’s a Tradesman with a whopping 3 options (5.7 hemi, chrome plus, limited slip diff). The only thing I wish I had was a heated steering wheel. Not a spec a lot of people want because they want the center console, heated leather seats, remote start etc etc. The average American doesn’t want an absolutely stripped out base model despite you trying to claim otherwise.

 

[supton]

Doesn't matter, stripped or loaded. Basest of base is going to have lots of chips. ABS wheel sensors? That's an IC per wheel. Crank and cam sensors? IC's. Transmission control unit? engine control unit? ABS control unit? lots of IC's in them. The lists goes on and on. I bet the windshield wipers and heck maybe even the horn all have IC's in them.

[Seatbelts latches these days have sensors in them too--that's an IC right there, just to detect if the buckle is inserted or not.]

IC's aren't the only problem. Passive components (resistors and capacitors) are big problem. I'm sure diodes and transistors are too.

 

[Snowflake White]

It’s a conspiracy!!

You're learning, you didn't attach the ..theory" part of the phrase.

 

[Snowflake White]

Doesn't matter, stripped or loaded. Basest of base is going to have lots of chips. ABS wheel sensors? That's an IC per wheel. Crank and cam sensors? IC's. Transmission control unit? engine control unit? ABS control unit? lots of IC's in them. The lists goes on and on. I bet the windshield wipers and heck maybe even the horn all have IC's in them.

[Seatbelts latches these days have sensors in them too--that's an IC right there, just to detect if the buckle is inserted or not.]

IC's aren't the only problem. Passive components (resistors and capacitors) are big problem. I'm sure diodes and transistors are too.

To some degree this is true, but my real gripe is the EXCESSIVENESS of relying on complex technology and the expense involved,
I'm NOT against all chips or technology, some help like back when electronic fuel injection arrived on scene...and makes care MORE reliable, but most that arrived after OBDII has been a net negative in that regard.

 

[Snowflake White]

Dealers can absolutely order them, they usually won’t unless you put a significant deposit up front because they don’t want to be stuck with a car nobody wants because it’s completely stripped down. My Ram sat on the lot for ~4 months because it’s a Tradesman with a whopping 3 options (5.7 hemi, chrome plus, limited slip diff). The only thing I wish I had was a heated steering wheel. Not a spec a lot of people want because they want the center console, heated leather seats, remote start etc etc. The average American doesn’t want an absolutely stripped out base model despite you trying to claim otherwise.

Sure they COULD order them, but many stores FLAT OUT REFUSE, since the mfrs don' require them to listen to customer requests,
I've actually offered in the past to put down sizable deposits at a number of stores and they still refused, and I've heard similar stories from other
consumers too.

 

[10WSmuckers]

I’m waiting for the chip shortage to be over since Ford has a ton of F350s sitting in Ky. Then try to score a good deal on a 7.3 gasser.

Until a tornado touches down in the area.

 

[Snowflake White]

Until a tornado touches down in the area.

Luckily we are really past tornado season for the most part.

 

[Skippy722]

Sure they COULD order them, but many stores FLAT OUT REFUSE, since the mfrs don' require them to listen to customer requests,
I've actually offered in the past to put down sizable deposits at a number of stores and they still refused, and I've heard similar stories from other
consumers too.

Because they do not want to be stuck with an unwanted by everybody except 1% of the population vehicle.

 

[JustinSL]

Until a tornado touches down in the area.

Then I could get a big discount .

 

[zzyzzx]

People don't want stripped down cars or starter houses.

 

[OVERKILL]

Because they do not want to be stuck with an unwanted by everybody except 1% of the population vehicle.

Absolutely.

People want the fluff, but they tend to want it at the lowest price possible, that's how you end up with vehicles like our previous EcoDiesel Big Horn which had leather, UConnect, trailer brake controller, heated wheel and seats, but no cooled seats, no power passenger seat, no memory driver seat, but had dual exhaust. It was like a culmination of the most frequently chosen options, that seems to be what the Big Horn trim trucks were. Our Sport got a few more options but still isn't quite as decked-out as a Laramie for example.

I've literally never overheard somebody ask any of the sales folk at my dealer if they carried or could order a stripper. They all want the most options at the lowest price.

 

[Snowflake White]

People don't want stripped down cars or starter houses.

If they weren't financing with borrowed money and paying interest they most definitely would be. It's the same thing thing causes housing bubbles and recessions. Poisonous system

 

[OVERKILL]

If they weren't financing with borrowed money and paying interest they most definitely would be. It's the same thing thing causes housing bubbles and recessions. Poisonous system

That's pure folly. Desire doesn't change just because affordability does. Jim working at Walmart might not be able to afford the loaded version, but that doesn't mean he didn't want it.

I would absolutely love to live on a 2,000 acre plot with zero neighbours and a 10,000 square foot shop, but that's not in the budget.

The people that legitimately desire having the most decontented products possible absolutely make up the extreme minority of the buying public. Clearly, you are part of that group, but projecting that onto the majority is beyond silly. OEM's cater to what the market wants, this is gleaned from historic sales data on what people buy. They don't stock cars with no options because nobody buys them, not because there's some grand conspiracy to bury luddites in dumbfounding complexity.

 

[Snowflake White]

That's pure folly. Desire doesn't change just because affordability does. Jim working at Walmart might not be able to afford the loaded version, but that doesn't mean he didn't want it.

I would absolutely love to live on a 2,000 acre plot with zero neighbours and a 10,000 square foot shop, but that's not in the budget.

The people that legitimately desire having the most decontented products possible absolutely make up the extreme minority of the buying public. Clearly, you are part of that group, but projecting that onto the majority is beyond silly. OEM's cater to what the market wants, this is gleaned from historic sales data on what people buy. They don't stock cars with no options because nobody buys them, not because there's some grand conspiracy to bury luddites in dumbfounding complexity.

Again people are "choosing" excesses and living beyond their means because of monetary manipulation. That's a fact.
Greed isn't a "grand conspiracy", it's a fact of life.

 

[OVERKILL]

Again people are "choosing" excesses and living beyond their means because of monetary manipulation. That's a fact.
Greed isn't a "grand conspiracy", it's a fact of life.

There's no "again", that's not what you stated, you stated:

if you asked most people what they really wanted in a car, many would tell you LESS complication, and higher build quality and durability.

You have now shifted your tune from people wanting rolling traps of decontentment to people choosing excess because of trickery on the financial side of things.

Those are not similar or even compatible positions.

Either people want strippermobiles (your original premise, which nobody has agreed with)

OR

People want lots of options, but they also want the cheapest possible price/"best deal" (my original premise here, running counter to your original claim).

You now appear to be ceding the latter in fact being the case, but that this is the result of the ability for people to borrow more than they perhaps should be able to in order to obtain these products.

It would be really helpful if you could stick to a theory, rather than you know, shuffling about like a dog on a greased floor and then tossing out "again" like we've already had this dance when in reality, that was a wholly different position from the one you are now claiming to have taken.

 

[Snowflake White]

There's no "again", that's not what you stated, you stated:



You have now shifted your tune from people wanting rolling traps of decontentment to people choosing excess because of trickery on the financial side of things.

Those are not similar or even compatible positions.

Either people want strippermobiles (your original premise, which nobody has agreed with)

OR

People want lots of options, but they also want the cheapest possible price/"best deal" (my original premise here, running counter to your original claim).

You now appear to be ceding the latter in fact being the case, but that this is the result of the ability for people to borrow more than they perhaps should be able to in order to obtain these products.

It would be really helpful if you could stick to a theory, rather than you know, shuffling about like a dog on a greased floor and then tossing out "again" like we've already had this dance when in reality, that was a wholly different position from the one you are now claiming to have taken.

It's clear that the subjects I spoke of are definitely related, and you know this. But in any case there are enough people wanting lower priced trim levels and features that it begs the question why the mfrs aren't willing to offer them. One of the major reasons is they force higher profit margin units on customers, essentially they have no choice if they want a new car. People are buying more than they can actually purchase because of financing, if the loans weren't there people would be buying less content in their cars.

 

[supton]

Are all the options that expensive? How much more does it cost to make an electric window vs crank? I mean, if 95% of sales were electric power windows, what would it cost to have a manual crank window? We all know it costs more (motor + electronics) for power but for an OEM to design a working crank window and then have parts on a shelf so as to make a low volume option has to actually increase the cost of the crank window.

Moving on, IMO much of the cost behind the electronics going into cars is R&D not silicon cost. We all know China can crank out cheap IC's and boards. We could do so stateside, not as cheap but still, that's the point of throwing electronics at a problem, use software to solve a problem instead of mechanical bits. But having a team of engineers develop the code and then develop the documents for the service manuals can't be cheap. I'm not sure it's the physical cost of the options that causes the cost--I think it's everything behind the scenes that might be.

 

[dishdude]

It's clear that the subjects I spoke of are definitely related, and you know this. But in any case there are enough people wanting lower priced trim levels and features that it begs the question why the mfrs aren't willing to offer them. One of the major reasons is they force higher profit margin units on customers, essentially they have no choice if they want a new car. People are buying more than they can actually purchase because of financing, if the loans weren't there people would be buying less content in their cars.

Can you list some options that you feel are gratuitous? Give us your Letterman style top 10 list of the most frivolous.

 

[OVERKILL]

It's clear that the subjects I spoke of are definitely related, and you know this.

They aren't. Let me try and break this down further.

- What somebody WANTS does not mean that's what they are going to be able to GET.
Are we in agreement on this point?

If so, then we get to:
- What somebody BUYS does not mean that's what they should necessarily be buying.
Are we in agreement on this point?

Somebody could want a McLaren F1, but clearly can't afford it, so they end up driving a Civic. That's the decoupling of desire from reality. The number of people who legitimately think "hey, I want a Corolla with options from 1986 including roll-up windows and manual locks" are in a percentage group so low the manufacturers don't order them unless somebody is willing to put down the money, because they don't want to be stuck with it if this unicorn of an individual backs out.

Your original premise was that people WANTED these cars, nobody in this thread has agreed with you on that point and I expect you know why that is.

You then changed your tune to people should not be spending money they don't have to buy these optioned-out cars. That's a completely different point.

This brings us back to those above two points, people WANT the options and banks and OEM's have made it so that people can finance over longer periods and with very low interest rates to allow those people to get those options, perhaps putting them at a level of borrowing that might not be advisable by some.

But in any case there are enough people wanting lower priced trim levels and features that it begs the question why the mfrs aren't willing to offer them.

This is your contention but you've got no evidence to back it. Nobody in this thread has agreed with it either. I expect you are one of these extremely rare people and think it is more common than it actually is. If people were ordering strippers in volume, the dealers would stock them. They don't stock them, because they can't sell them, and they don't want to be stuck with inventory they can't sell.

I'm good friends with the owner of my FCA dealer. We've discussed what he orders and why. Everything I've stated here is supported by that data. My current GC was ordered without a sunroof, I had to custom order it because nobody buys them without a sunroof. He'd never have ordered this configuration to stock for that reason. There are options that he knows, based on orders he's made, that people want, and so when he orders inventory, this is a cross-section of vehicles that feature those options so that he can avoid custom-ordering vehicles as much as possible. Average Jane and Joe would much rather find what they want on the lot and drive off with it than wait 2 months for it to get built.

One of the major reasons is they force higher profit margin units on customers, essentially they have no choice if they want a new car.

Nobody is being forced, dealers are quite willing to order unique configurations if the person is willing to put down the money for it. The reality is that people want the nicer trimmed vehicles and the dealerships know this as do the OEM's so the system is configured with long borrowing periods, incentives and low interest rates to allow people to get into the vehicle they want, even though it may, in reality, be more than they should be spending.

People are buying more than they can actually purchase because of financing, if the loans weren't there people would be buying less content in their cars.

Yes, but that wouldn't be because they WANTED those vehicles, they'd be forced into vehicles they don't actually WANT and have to buy what they can AFFORD, which brings us back to the two bullet points I made at the beginning of this post.

I expect, being a person that actually doesn't WANT a trimmed-out vehicle, you are having a hard time putting yourself in the mindset of average Joe or Jane car shopper. The folly is that you believe this is more common (your mindset) than it actually is. Even here on BITOG, where old cars come to die and the Crown Vic PI is the board mascot, the people that buy newer, nicely equipped vehicles greatly outnumber those driving that type of vehicle, let alone folks that are actively trying to buy new vehicles trimmed in that fashion.

If we had a poll, it sounds like the results would likely surprise you.