The battery has to be at a certain temperature range for high-speed charging. At too low it will damage the battery and too high it will likely overheat. Preconditioning for high speed charging is supposed to get it in an ideal range.
Daily supercharging kills Model 3 battery in 120,000 miles
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The battery has to be at a certain temperature range for high-speed charging. At too low it will damage the battery and too high it will likely overheat. Preconditioning for high speed charging is supposed to get it in an ideal range.
I guess I was commenting more on the high end of that. Correct it does need to be in the right range, but at the same time once it’s hot the speed will continue to increase heat.
Wait until they factor in cost of kwh by demand. Our electric rates are going on a demand cost framework soon they threaten us.
As the supply becomes limited the cost will rise.
It still needs to be actively cooled while charging at a higher rate. I've been there and it's clear that the fans are working hard keeping the battery from overheating.
That being said, Tesla is pretty clear that Level 2 charging is best for battery longevity. However, using a Supercharger is within their specifications, so they can't exactly deny a warranty claim based on using a Supercharger for every single charge.
That's definitely true. I can't say that I avoid supercharging because I'm concerned about the battery. It's more convenient to slow charge at home anyway unless I have somewhere to be.
Did they not learn anything from our lowly lil cell phone batteries?!
Weirdly they did. Why do you think they’re liquid heated and cooled in cars?
I didn't know that if you leave a Tesla sitting overnight in a below freezing environment, the batteries will actually deplete themselves over time, with the car just sitting trying to keep the batteries warm.
Yet another minus for them operating in freezing climates.
It’s not my understanding that it does this on its own. There might be some form of battery protection setting I don’t have set to on. I’ve never had mine do this at least, but it will take a while to warm up to allow full throttle and full regenerative braking.
I’m not saying it isn’t possible, but mine has been used in below freezing temperatures consistently and other than using additional power for heat for the cabin and driveline I can’t recall seeing this happening while sitting unused.
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I assume most folks are plugged in at night even in the freeze?
Probably. We tend to if it’s at home and the battery isn’t above 60% already. My wife used to work 3rd shift for a hotel and the car sat out in freezing weather all the time and didn’t charge while there. I never looked to closely but the way she takes care of the car she would have been freaking out over it burning up power sitting there.
I think I still have a relatively low friction point for worrying about battery usage. I just don’t use the car in a way where it has ever affected me and if it did I would be calculating out all these things. I’m over here more worried about what the Stage 1 tune did to my GTI’s fuel economy at the same time as it’s gotten cold and we’ve switched to winter blend.
That would be a good idea. There are a lot of electronics and motors/fans that operate continuously/often, and it's inherently more efficient to power those off of "mains" power than powering off a battery. Obviously battery power can be used to try and heat the battery, but there's an obvious downside to that.
Electronics are extremely tolerant of cold temperatures. Batteries are not. So providing external power is best when not driving. I still wonder though since I've plugged in a Model 3 and it indicates 0/32A at 2V when it's otherwise programmed to start charging the battery after midnight.
I'd think an ideal situation with a Tesla in cold outdoor temperatures would be to be connected to a Wall Charger (including Destination Charging) or other continuous Level 2 power source. The same would go for another EV. It would supply the power to keep the battery at an ideal temperature while avoiding the use of the battery at times when it's less efficient.
There isn't going to be a great solution when driving at cold temps, but then again all vehicles do poorly in cold temps for one reason or another.
JHZR2
Staff member
There isn’t. The science says I^2R makes heat, heat increases side reactions and impedance. Also faster charging requires more overpotential which creates electrolyte oxidation.
This is all ohms law and simple electrochemistry.
There may be empirical data showing the extent that it doesn’t matter. But it’s not science.
It would be the same as saying a 3k and 10k oci are the same, no issue. Maybe so, but we know fresh oil is better and will meet specs with reserve.
I remember seeing something from an oil testing engineer claiming that fresh oil wasn't necessarily better because the antiwear additives needed to be oxidized before they would properly bond to metal parts. He said that it was ironic that wear often went up right after an oil change. Of course there are a lot of other things that benefit from fresh oil.
Thanks for sharing the science in a short and simple format. As a lay person common sense tells me there's no free lunch when it comes to rapid charging. I know there are people with opinions that will say there's no issue, they or their friends have done it for years, but the facts and science differ.
It's not a simple thing. Extremely fast charging all the time with something like a cell phone battery is a horrible idea because there's really no way to control the temperature. However, being able to heat/cool batteries is immensely helpful in mitigating the negative effects of fast charging.
In the end it's really about tradeoffs. If it's done occasionally, then the effects are going to be minimal.
Exactly. People who like to travel want to get to where they're going fast, and there lies the problem for many of us. It's a trade off a lot of people don't want. Words like minimal in a case like this are hard to define, the effects can vary, greatly.
Since my parents got their Model 3, they haven't used a Tesla Supercharger other than the first few days before the Mobile Connector was shipped to them.
For them it's not a tradeoff. They consider charging it at home overnight to be preferable to going to a gas station. I would think that's a very common use, as an "around town" vehicle.
However, they're thinking of taking some guests for some trips that can't be done on a single charge, and I'm trying to help them plan for it. At that point they're likely going to need that unless they're somewhere for hours and can find a Level 2 charger - possibly a free one like we've seen a few times. That's the point where the worry about premature capacity loss is balanced with a practical need to get home. That's probably where they're going to need to live with the tradeoffs.
Obviously there are those who have used Tesla Superchargers regularly, albeit not daily, and found capacity loss on par with what's expected. The owner who uses Supercharging for every charge is probably going to be an outlier.
That being said, who know if the original story is just an outlier. The bulk of my experience with Tesla Supercharging is with loaner cars. I think the first was a Model S P100D that was probably a lease return although I don't recall that much other than it had about 70K miles and a lot of dents. The other was a 2018 Model 3 Long Range, and my Spidey sense is that it's lived its entire life as a loaner (it had a California fleet registration). That still stated 301 miles range (new is 310) after about 50K miles and as a Tesla loaner I would think the vast majority of charging was with Tesla Superchargers.
Since my wife recently retired we've been making some road trips with friends, much like what you mentioned your parents are planning to do. I'm not willing to compromise, filling my tank in under 5 minutes and being able to continue on my way is something I'm not willing to give up. It is a convenience I have no problem paying for. I also have my son and brother in Florida, about 1,100 miles away. I already made one road trip there, the thought of having to charge up would have added a tremendous amount of time and stress to that trip. We'll be doing it a few times a year soon. An EV would be an impossible sell to me. Even with a doubling of alleged savings, and a doubling of the incentive. Somethings no matter how good they sound don't appeal to me.
It might pay for your parents to have a road worthy ICE vehicle if they plan on doing a lot of traveling with friends. Or shorten their trips, and/or plan on longer travel times to distant places. If they're like me it might be a bitter pill. In any event I wish them well.
Their Model 3 is a newer and nicer vehicle than their other vehicle - a 2008 Nissan Rogue. They've got it now and they're going to make use of it. At their age I doubt they want to go on many more long road trips although we took the opportunity to go on one at Tesla's dime with a loaner. It was kind of fun though. Sometimes the Superchargers were where Tesla drivers could chat. We came across a Tesla employee who was providing a test drive about 120 miles from his base.
I've seen plenty of out of state license plates in Teslas and seen many who were obviously on long road trips. So there are enough people willing to do it.