Could most people here agree that a center tube with smaller holes would be preferable for ANY filter, due to the blowouts witnessed on E-cores?
Cut Open: 18 Super Tech Filters!!!!
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Originally Posted By: Ike_Clanton
Could most people here agree that a center tube with smaller holes would be preferable for ANY filter, due to the blowouts witnessed on E-cores?
LOL. Not sure you could get "most" folks to agree. As I've said, I've used the the ST #3614 with no issues(cut open) several times for 5k OCI's on a Tacoma.
Now, based on recent (anecdotal) posted pics (like here), it does appear/seem that the open nylon cage design might be more susceptible to blow out than the traditional metal centertube design. Especially it seems, in areas where pleats may not be quite as uniform and tend to flatten out against the cage.
The question(s) seems to be what is causing enough pressure to cause this to happen, and what exactly is that pressure level? Or, are there multiple causes?
Could most people here agree that a center tube with smaller holes would be preferable for ANY filter, due to the blowouts witnessed on E-cores?
LOL. Not sure you could get "most" folks to agree. As I've said, I've used the the ST #3614 with no issues(cut open) several times for 5k OCI's on a Tacoma.
Now, based on recent (anecdotal) posted pics (like here), it does appear/seem that the open nylon cage design might be more susceptible to blow out than the traditional metal centertube design. Especially it seems, in areas where pleats may not be quite as uniform and tend to flatten out against the cage.
The question(s) seems to be what is causing enough pressure to cause this to happen, and what exactly is that pressure level? Or, are there multiple causes?
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Wasn't there a recent discussion on here about coolant/water causing filter media to SWELL, and thus distort; now it magically comes apart because of a couple of failed E-cores?
Bill runs reasonable intervals on engines that are clean. His pictures clearly show that. That is not an environment setup for failure and likely why he hasn't, and likely WON'T see one. He is not creating an elevated PSID across the element, which seems to cause the failure.
For the number of smart people on this board, I really have a hard time figuring out why the REASON for failure is so difficult to grasp. SuperBusa has pointed it out numerous times.
The centre core of the E-core is strong and rigid; more rigid than a metal core, likely stronger too. The felt end-caps seem to be reasonably well affixed as well. I think the construction, for an inexpensive filter is sound. But it DOES have a flaw, and it is THAT flaw that causes this TYPE of failure, as well as the other failures we have seen.
The large spacing in the centre cage provides POOR support for STRESSED media. This is the key. If you aren't stressing the media, you aren't going to see the failure.
How would you stress the media? Well you need elevated PSID. I imagine running 20w50 in the middle of winter in Winnipeg would do it. But an engine that is very dirty, run with intervals that are far too long, thus saturating the media with contaminants could cause the same thing to occur. Basically, the media flattens against the cage, the large pressure delta literally blows a hole through the media because the holes in the cage are too large to provide adequate support in this scenario.
The media in an ecore is stressed easily when a filter is constructed with large uneven spaces in the pleats and poor end cap bonding of the media ends in the same area that we are seeing media blow outs. It's not rocket science and has very little to do with the application, and everything to do with some filters being manufactured poorly.
Bill's filters are manufactured well, evidenced by the pics. The 4 I cut open were not, and flattened out against the cage, one blew media, the others held on for dear life.
However, we can all avoid this inherent risk by simply using a filter with a solid center tube. I would use a Fram over an ecore any day of the week!
Wasn't there a recent discussion on here about coolant/water causing filter media to SWELL, and thus distort; now it magically comes apart because of a couple of failed E-cores?
Bill runs reasonable intervals on engines that are clean. His pictures clearly show that. That is not an environment setup for failure and likely why he hasn't, and likely WON'T see one. He is not creating an elevated PSID across the element, which seems to cause the failure.
For the number of smart people on this board, I really have a hard time figuring out why the REASON for failure is so difficult to grasp. SuperBusa has pointed it out numerous times.
The centre core of the E-core is strong and rigid; more rigid than a metal core, likely stronger too. The felt end-caps seem to be reasonably well affixed as well. I think the construction, for an inexpensive filter is sound. But it DOES have a flaw, and it is THAT flaw that causes this TYPE of failure, as well as the other failures we have seen.
The large spacing in the centre cage provides POOR support for STRESSED media. This is the key. If you aren't stressing the media, you aren't going to see the failure.
How would you stress the media? Well you need elevated PSID. I imagine running 20w50 in the middle of winter in Winnipeg would do it. But an engine that is very dirty, run with intervals that are far too long, thus saturating the media with contaminants could cause the same thing to occur. Basically, the media flattens against the cage, the large pressure delta literally blows a hole through the media because the holes in the cage are too large to provide adequate support in this scenario.
The media in an ecore is stressed easily when a filter is constructed with large uneven spaces in the pleats and poor end cap bonding of the media ends in the same area that we are seeing media blow outs. It's not rocket science and has very little to do with the application, and everything to do with some filters being manufactured poorly.
Bill's filters are manufactured well, evidenced by the pics. The 4 I cut open were not, and flattened out against the cage, one blew media, the others held on for dear life.
However, we can all avoid this inherent risk by simply using a filter with a solid center tube. I would use a Fram over an ecore any day of the week!
Originally Posted By: Colt45ws
I think the only flaw might be the way they are assembled; allowing the large gaps in the area where the ends are bonded together. If it was packed similar to the rest of the filter, I dont think the center cage would be an issue. You can see that the width between pleats in this area is allowing the media to flatten against the cage and fail.
BINGO!
But since there is no way to know if the pleats are tightly packed and the ends bonded well, until after the oci, leaves an inherent risk I am not comfortable with.
I think the only flaw might be the way they are assembled; allowing the large gaps in the area where the ends are bonded together. If it was packed similar to the rest of the filter, I dont think the center cage would be an issue. You can see that the width between pleats in this area is allowing the media to flatten against the cage and fail.
BINGO!
But since there is no way to know if the pleats are tightly packed and the ends bonded well, until after the oci, leaves an inherent risk I am not comfortable with.
Another great escrape goes down,take any other well built filter and subject it to moister, ok yea media swells and gets weaker but a filter with a steel center tube will still not allow the media to blow through,just too much support for that failure.
these [censored] filters should be pulled from the shelfs!!!
these [censored] filters should be pulled from the shelfs!!!
Bill, you rock. I've read nearly every post you have ever made, and they are concise, accurate, and informational. Every Iffy Lube, every VIOC, every Champion Labs filter user, and yes, most of the coveted AC Delco users had better be careful of their E-Core filters. They are all bad, evil even. An afterthought of [censored] himself. Wicked. Just leave them alone, everyone.. Bill and I will look after them ourselves, by containing them in an underground storage facility under New York city... wait, that's been done before.. And yes this statement is as ludicrous as some others in this thread.
Originally Posted By: webfors
But since there is no way to know if the pleats are tightly packed and the ends bonded well, until after the oci, leaves an inherent risk I am not comfortable with.
I agree. It doesn't matter how many filters someone else cut open and had no issues. It's not going to assure the filter your using is fine. The potential problem of the pleating opening up and tearing against the wide-spaced center tube is there. You won't know it until after running and cutting it open and after the fact. It seems like a gamble that I don't want to take and don't have to take. I don't run ST anyway, but Delcos, or use to unless they are a classic design. So I'm not saving the whopping 60 cents price difference anyway really and wouldn't run ecore ST even for free. I still wonder why anyone would run them besides to save about 60 cents.
But since there is no way to know if the pleats are tightly packed and the ends bonded well, until after the oci, leaves an inherent risk I am not comfortable with.
I agree. It doesn't matter how many filters someone else cut open and had no issues. It's not going to assure the filter your using is fine. The potential problem of the pleating opening up and tearing against the wide-spaced center tube is there. You won't know it until after running and cutting it open and after the fact. It seems like a gamble that I don't want to take and don't have to take. I don't run ST anyway, but Delcos, or use to unless they are a classic design. So I'm not saving the whopping 60 cents price difference anyway really and wouldn't run ecore ST even for free. I still wonder why anyone would run them besides to save about 60 cents.
Let's get real here. I have been here for a long time and I have seen many reports of burst filters, some going back to before there were Ecores. Until recently, the Ecore had compiled a very good record despite the nay sayers. Some people oppose anything new and others favor certain brands for reasons best not mentioned without proof.
Well like has been said, it's possible some of the ecores are now being made subpar in media area and number of pleats. It doesn't matter what past filters' performance was. The wide center tube spacing will always be a shortcoming, so ecores require lots of uniform pleating. They may not all be getting the pleating that is necessary. You'll never really know for sure until after the fact, so it's a leap of faith. Steel center tubes don't have this shortcoming. That's as real as it gets.
Interesting thread.
I just removed a Purolator Pureone and replaced it with a Supertech filter that I had on hand (purely for convenience).
Though I didn't cut anything open, the differrence in construction between the two filters was very noticeable, and I'm not terribly picky about my filters.
I compared unused P1s and STs: the P1 was heavier and far more sturdy-feeling than the ST.
After use, with nearly identical mileage, the P1 was heavier yet than a used ST, which I think was due to trapping more junk (my gram scale was in the house so I was too rushed to get it and do an actual weighing).
Of course, my filter is a 3387a.
It may not be important, but I also notice that the P1 3387 is physically larger (definitely slightly longer and it appeared slightly greater in diameter) than the ST.
I'm sure the STs and even Fram is ok for reasonable intervals (I intend to use up my small stash), but I am really impressed (and a bit more confident) with the P1, which I can usually get for about $6. The P1 seems to be an excellent filter for the money.
I just removed a Purolator Pureone and replaced it with a Supertech filter that I had on hand (purely for convenience).
Though I didn't cut anything open, the differrence in construction between the two filters was very noticeable, and I'm not terribly picky about my filters.
I compared unused P1s and STs: the P1 was heavier and far more sturdy-feeling than the ST.
After use, with nearly identical mileage, the P1 was heavier yet than a used ST, which I think was due to trapping more junk (my gram scale was in the house so I was too rushed to get it and do an actual weighing).
Of course, my filter is a 3387a.
It may not be important, but I also notice that the P1 3387 is physically larger (definitely slightly longer and it appeared slightly greater in diameter) than the ST.
I'm sure the STs and even Fram is ok for reasonable intervals (I intend to use up my small stash), but I am really impressed (and a bit more confident) with the P1, which I can usually get for about $6. The P1 seems to be an excellent filter for the money.
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Well like has been said, it's possible some of the ecores are now being made subpar in media area and number of pleats. It doesn't matter what past filters' performance was. The wide center tube spacing will always be a shortcoming, so ecores require lots of uniform pleating. They may not all be getting the pleating that is necessary. You'll never really know for sure until after the fact, so it's a leap of faith. Steel center tubes don't have this shortcoming. That's as real as it gets.
The odds of rolling snake eyes is 1 in 36 (2.8%).
The odd of having an Ecore blow out are 2 in 18 (11.1%)
Odds of an Ecore blow out are almost 4 times higher than rolling snake eyes.
What odds do you like?
Well like has been said, it's possible some of the ecores are now being made subpar in media area and number of pleats. It doesn't matter what past filters' performance was. The wide center tube spacing will always be a shortcoming, so ecores require lots of uniform pleating. They may not all be getting the pleating that is necessary. You'll never really know for sure until after the fact, so it's a leap of faith. Steel center tubes don't have this shortcoming. That's as real as it gets.
The odds of rolling snake eyes is 1 in 36 (2.8%).
The odd of having an Ecore blow out are 2 in 18 (11.1%)
Odds of an Ecore blow out are almost 4 times higher than rolling snake eyes.
What odds do you like?
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