Cut Open: 18 Super Tech Filters!!!!

[SuperBusa]

Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
So you admit the filters are months to years old, and "weathered" with water contaminated oil?

Thanks for clearing that up.

This thread is null and void.

Next...


It takes oil flow that creates PSID across the media to make it fail. It just doesn't tear because it's wet. Cut a used, oil soaked filter open and soak it in water to see if the media magically tears itself open or not.


Soaking a used cut open filter with water and comparing it to a used oil filter with water in the oil that is exposed to oil pressure are 2 different things.

I'd think that filter media that's exposed to copious amounts of water regardless, would damage the media.


True ... that's my point.

Who said these filters were used on cars with water in the oil pan? From my understanding, the water came from them sitting outside after they were taken off the car, and not ever used after water exposure. So, like I said, I doubt the media just "dissolved" when they got some water on them. Do my experiment to see if the media magically tears open while just sitting while wet.

 

[Drew99GT]

Originally Posted By: SuperBusa


Who said these filters were used on cars with water in the oil pan? From my understanding, the water came from them sitting outside after they were taken off the car, and not ever used after water exposure. So, like I said, I doubt the media just "dissolved" when they got some water on them. Do my experiment to see if the media magically tears open while just sitting while wet.


The original poster admitted the filters in question had water in them. The media looks that way and there's no oil where it looks like the media was wet and then dried. It's perfectly logical to conclude that something like oil filter media exposed to water and then dried would be brittle as a gram cracker. No, the media wouldn't magically tear just sitting there - to post such a thing is childish. But it wouldn't be out of the realm to conclude that in the cutting process or simply looking for split media that's already been damaged by water, that it could tear.

You can't conclude anything from this post other then someone cut open some filters and admitted they were already damaged by water.

 

[cruisertech]

Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
Originally Posted By: SuperBusa


Who said these filters were used on cars with water in the oil pan? From my understanding, the water came from them sitting outside after they were taken off the car, and not ever used after water exposure. So, like I said, I doubt the media just "dissolved" when they got some water on them. Do my experiment to see if the media magically tears open while just sitting while wet.


The original poster admitted the filters in question had water in them. The media looks that way and there's no oil where it looks like the media was wet and then dried. It's perfectly logical to conclude that something like oil filter media exposed to water and then dried would be brittle as a gram cracker. No, the media wouldn't magically tear just sitting there - to post such a thing is childish. But it wouldn't be out of the realm to conclude that in the cutting process or simply looking for split media that's already been damaged by water, that it could tear.

You can't conclude anything from this post other then someone cut open some filters and admitted they were already damaged by water.
What about the first filter with torn media?I don"t see signs of water in it.

 

[mechanicx]

I don't think it can be denied that Ecore media can open up and tear against the wide-spaced center cage ocassionally. It might not always happen but it is a good possibility whether it is 5%, 10% or whatever. I think some people are really defending Ecores just because they can get them for a hole 60 cents cheaper than a Purolator classic. If they were the same price as Classics, what do you want to bet they wouldn't be defending them or even using them. That's why they don't use Fram lol.

 

[Texan4Life]

Originally Posted By: AuthorEditor
C'mon now, the guy goes to all the work to cut open 18 filters and he finds two bad ones, and people are complaining that he's biased! If he wanted to trash Ecores wouldn't he just post the two bad ones and not mention the other 16? Plus, he obviously uses Ecores or why else would be have 18? And, he states he's still using Ecores in some applications. It sounds to me like an honest assessment of what he found, and I thank him for going to all that trouble for the rest of us. Thanks!


thanks

I didn't expect this to turn into such a controversy.

the ST8A in the line up pic is a new filter waiting to be put on a 86 mustang. It's not like I had a youtube of me throwing my ST stash into a wood chipper, though such things would be considered OK if it were a Fram.

 

[ps49556n]

wouldn't the water ruin the paper inside?? too me it seems that the water is the cause not poor quality

 

[Oregoonian]

I doubt water had anything to do with the tears...

Used filter media is soaled with oil and thus resistant to being harmed or effected
by H2O.

These filters just failed due to being cheaply made and poor media....and theres no defending poor quality. As we have heard many times before "You get what you pay for".

I know there is nothing to prove this...and someone can always pull up an example of some vehicle that lasted 400,000 miles on cheap filters and conventional oil...but, I'm betting that 'quality' wins out most of the time.

That being said, I use synthetic oil and a quality filter...and I have the assurence that as a general rule my vehicles engine will last longer then conventional oil/cheap filter vehicles.

After all...Using better quality oils and filters cost just a few more $$$ per year. Why not go with quality?

 

[cronk]

I will begin by saying Purolators are my preferred filter, but I have often used Ac Delco Ecores on my chevy truck and Saturn car.
All the Ecores I have cut open have looked fine, I have probably cut open a dozen. It seems like most of the reports of failed Ecores are either engines with blocked bypass valves, or moisture contamination. I wouldn't really consider these pics relevant to the quality of the filter, since its been sitting in the weather for who knows how long. Obviously if the media has been exposed to those types of conditions, just the stress of being cut open and flexed a little may have been enough to cause the media to split.
It would be interesting to see how other filters would fare in similar conditions.

 

[Drew99GT]

Originally Posted By: Oregoonian
I doubt water had anything to do with the tears...

Used filter media is soaled with oil and thus resistant to being harmed or effected
by H2O.

These filters just failed due to being cheaply made and poor media....and theres no defending poor quality. As we have heard many times before "You get what you pay for".

I know there is nothing to prove this...and someone can always pull up an example of some vehicle that lasted 400,000 miles on cheap filters and conventional oil...but, I'm betting that 'quality' wins out most of the time.

That being said, I use synthetic oil and a quality filter...and I have the assurence that as a general rule my vehicles engine will last longer then conventional oil/cheap filter vehicles.

After all...Using better quality oils and filters cost just a few more $$$ per year. Why not go with quality?


I totally disagree. Having worked in the carpet cleaning and water restoration industry, water causes extreme damage, especially when things are soaked and then dry (especially wood/drywall/cardboard etc.). I've seen enough examples of building material that's saturated and then dried which becomes so brittle it'll crack if you broke wind near it.

 

[Texan4Life]

Originally Posted By: cronk
It would be interesting to see how other filters would fare in similar conditions.


I have other brands that have weathered right along side of the STs. If my hand/wrist is not sore tomorrow I will cut them open too.

 

[Drew99GT]

What do you mean by "weathered"?

 

[Texan4Life]

Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
What do you mean by "weathered"?


outdoors

 

[SuperBusa]

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
I don't think it can be denied that Ecore media can open up and tear against the wide-spaced center cage ocassionally.


Look closely at the photo in this link. See the imprint of the center cage in the media? Flattened media gets a high force on it ... much higher than if the pleats stay in place. Flattened media on a wide open cage = potential media blow-out/damage.

Root cause ... bad design.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...190#Post1833190

 

[SuperBusa]

Originally Posted By: Texan4Life
It's not like I had a youtube of me throwing my ST stash into a wood chipper, though such things would be considered OK if it were a Fram.


AR-15 targets might be a good use for them. What's a few more holes gonna hurt?

 

[SuperBusa]

Originally Posted By: Oregoonian
I doubt water had anything to do with the tears...

Used filter media is soaked with oil and thus resistant to being harmed or effected by H2O.

These filters just failed due to being cheaply made and poor media....and theres no defending poor quality. As we have heard many times before "You get what you pay for".


100% +1.

 

[OVERKILL]

Wasn't there a recent discussion on here about coolant/water causing filter media to SWELL, and thus distort; now it magically comes apart because of a couple of failed E-cores?

Bill runs reasonable intervals on engines that are clean. His pictures clearly show that. That is not an environment setup for failure and likely why he hasn't, and likely WON'T see one. He is not creating an elevated PSID across the element, which seems to cause the failure.

For the number of smart people on this board, I really have a hard time figuring out why the REASON for failure is so difficult to grasp. SuperBusa has pointed it out numerous times.

The centre core of the E-core is strong and rigid; more rigid than a metal core, likely stronger too. The felt end-caps seem to be reasonably well affixed as well. I think the construction, for an inexpensive filter is sound. But it DOES have a flaw, and it is THAT flaw that causes this TYPE of failure, as well as the other failures we have seen.

The large spacing in the centre cage provides POOR support for STRESSED media. This is the key. If you aren't stressing the media, you aren't going to see the failure.

How would you stress the media? Well you need elevated PSID. I imagine running 20w50 in the middle of winter in Winnipeg would do it. But an engine that is very dirty, run with intervals that are far too long, thus saturating the media with contaminants could cause the same thing to occur. Basically, the media flattens against the cage, the large pressure delta literally blows a hole through the media because the holes in the cage are too large to provide adequate support in this scenario.

 

[Colt45ws]

I think the only flaw might be the way they are assembled; allowing the large gaps in the area where the ends are bonded together. If it was packed similar to the rest of the filter, I dont think the center cage would be an issue. You can see that the width between pleats in this area is allowing the media to flatten against the cage and fail.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Colt45ws
I think the only flaw might be the way they are assembled; allowing the large gaps in the area where the ends are bonded together. If it was packed similar to the rest of the filter, I dont think the center cage would be an issue. You can see that the width between pleats in this area is allowing the media to flatten against the cage and fail.


True, but with a traditional metal centre tube, with the small perforations for holes, rather than the large gaps like with the E-core cage, that sort of sloppiness in assembly has never been an issue.

 

[Colt45ws]

I agree. But I think that sort of sloppiness shouldn't exist, today. We have the technology to make it better.

 

[SuperBusa]

Originally Posted By: Colt45ws
I agree. But I think that sort of sloppiness shouldn't exist, today. We have the technology to make it better.


If the technology exists, but isn't applied, then it essentially doesn't exist. It might be designed well on paper, but manufacturing it to match the design is the key ... assuming the design specification is to not have pleat gaps that flatten out.

From all the photos of blown out Ecores here, I'm wondering if it is more than sloppy manufacturing. How many do you think blow out and nobody even knows the difference because they aren't a guy that cuts open oil filters (?).

Why'd you change your handle? ... must of just happened recently.