So if it doesn't matter, why would the blenders keep using more expensive fluids? Wouldn't they make more money only using group 3?
Current synthetics that are PAO based
- Thread starter sHERM
- Start date
- Status
Originally Posted By: glxpassat
So if it doesn't matter, why would the blenders keep using more expensive fluids? Wouldn't they make more money only using group 3?
The performance of the oil is what matters etc. Not the focus if there is x% of this and y% of that base oil to attest to its superiority. More reading and less posting will lead to the same conclusion regarding this issue.
So if it doesn't matter, why would the blenders keep using more expensive fluids? Wouldn't they make more money only using group 3?
The performance of the oil is what matters etc. Not the focus if there is x% of this and y% of that base oil to attest to its superiority. More reading and less posting will lead to the same conclusion regarding this issue.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: virginoil
Originally Posted By: sHERM
What current synthetic oils are PAO group IV based ? I have heard that Mobil 1 EP is?
Question is obsolete. It doesn't matter. Who cares. More important things in life. Its been debated into oblivion. No longer considered valid. More marketing than performance based. Question should be retired. We have all moved on. Makes 2/5ths of 3/8ths difference for street driven cars. Hydro-cracked XHVI oils rule.
I think it does matter and a lot of us care. The Germans care and care enough to have a law about it. A refined product is not a synthetic. It's not a manmade substance. It's purified dyno.
This is what happens when you let a judge make a technical call an engineer should be making. That's what's wrong with this country. MBAs and lawyers are running things. That philosophy didn't put a man on the moon.
If you want mediocrity put business people in charge.
Originally Posted By: sHERM
What current synthetic oils are PAO group IV based ? I have heard that Mobil 1 EP is?
Question is obsolete. It doesn't matter. Who cares. More important things in life. Its been debated into oblivion. No longer considered valid. More marketing than performance based. Question should be retired. We have all moved on. Makes 2/5ths of 3/8ths difference for street driven cars. Hydro-cracked XHVI oils rule.
I think it does matter and a lot of us care. The Germans care and care enough to have a law about it. A refined product is not a synthetic. It's not a manmade substance. It's purified dyno.
This is what happens when you let a judge make a technical call an engineer should be making. That's what's wrong with this country. MBAs and lawyers are running things. That philosophy didn't put a man on the moon.
If you want mediocrity put business people in charge.
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Originally Posted By: virginoil
Originally Posted By: sHERM
What current synthetic oils are PAO group IV based ? I have heard that Mobil 1 EP is?
Question is obsolete. It doesn't matter. Who cares. More important things in life. Its been debated into oblivion. No longer considered valid. More marketing than performance based. Question should be retired. We have all moved on. Makes 2/5ths of 3/8ths difference for street driven cars. Hydro-cracked XHVI oils rule.
I think it does matter and a lot of us care. The Germans care and care enough to have a law about it. A refined product is not a synthetic. It's not a manmade substance. It's purified dyno.
This is what happens when you let a judge make a technical call an engineer should be making. That's what's wrong with this country. MBAs and lawyers are running things. That philosophy didn't put a man on the moon.
If you want mediocrity put business people in charge.
Its only motor oil. One aspect that is all.
We all care that's why we have said get over the base oil syndrome.
Search the early BITOG days and read and I am sure you will come to the same conclusion.
Originally Posted By: virginoil
Originally Posted By: sHERM
What current synthetic oils are PAO group IV based ? I have heard that Mobil 1 EP is?
Question is obsolete. It doesn't matter. Who cares. More important things in life. Its been debated into oblivion. No longer considered valid. More marketing than performance based. Question should be retired. We have all moved on. Makes 2/5ths of 3/8ths difference for street driven cars. Hydro-cracked XHVI oils rule.
I think it does matter and a lot of us care. The Germans care and care enough to have a law about it. A refined product is not a synthetic. It's not a manmade substance. It's purified dyno.
This is what happens when you let a judge make a technical call an engineer should be making. That's what's wrong with this country. MBAs and lawyers are running things. That philosophy didn't put a man on the moon.
If you want mediocrity put business people in charge.
Its only motor oil. One aspect that is all.
We all care that's why we have said get over the base oil syndrome.
Search the early BITOG days and read and I am sure you will come to the same conclusion.
Last edited:
It is? Suppose you explain to us how it is made, and how the dino oil is "purified".
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
I think it does matter and a lot of us care. The Germans care and care enough to have a law about it. A refined product is not a synthetic. It's not a manmade substance. It's purified dyno.
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
I think it does matter and a lot of us care. The Germans care and care enough to have a law about it. A refined product is not a synthetic. It's not a manmade substance. It's purified dyno.
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Originally Posted By: virginoil
Originally Posted By: sHERM
What current synthetic oils are PAO group IV based ? I have heard that Mobil 1 EP is?
Question is obsolete. It doesn't matter. Who cares. More important things in life. Its been debated into oblivion. No longer considered valid. More marketing than performance based. Question should be retired. We have all moved on. Makes 2/5ths of 3/8ths difference for street driven cars. Hydro-cracked XHVI oils rule.
I think it does matter and a lot of us care. The Germans care and care enough to have a law about it. A refined product is not a synthetic. It's not a manmade substance. It's purified dyno.
This is what happens when you let a judge make a technical call an engineer should be making. That's what's wrong with this country. MBAs and lawyers are running things. That philosophy didn't put a man on the moon.
If you want mediocrity put business people in charge.
Purified dino comes from the ground. Doesn't everything come from either the ground or air? Also why does it have to be oil gospel, just because the Germans say so?
Originally Posted By: virginoil
Originally Posted By: sHERM
What current synthetic oils are PAO group IV based ? I have heard that Mobil 1 EP is?
Question is obsolete. It doesn't matter. Who cares. More important things in life. Its been debated into oblivion. No longer considered valid. More marketing than performance based. Question should be retired. We have all moved on. Makes 2/5ths of 3/8ths difference for street driven cars. Hydro-cracked XHVI oils rule.
I think it does matter and a lot of us care. The Germans care and care enough to have a law about it. A refined product is not a synthetic. It's not a manmade substance. It's purified dyno.
This is what happens when you let a judge make a technical call an engineer should be making. That's what's wrong with this country. MBAs and lawyers are running things. That philosophy didn't put a man on the moon.
If you want mediocrity put business people in charge.
Purified dino comes from the ground. Doesn't everything come from either the ground or air? Also why does it have to be oil gospel, just because the Germans say so?
Originally Posted By: tig1
just because the Germans say so?
Mercedes BMW Porsche, VW. The best machinist in the world.
Mobil 1 thinks there is a difference or they never would have contested it.
Lower pour points. It comes up here time and again.
Any oil works fine in commuter cars. What about engines that push the envelope?
just because the Germans say so?
Mercedes BMW Porsche, VW. The best machinist in the world.
Mobil 1 thinks there is a difference or they never would have contested it.
Lower pour points. It comes up here time and again.
Any oil works fine in commuter cars. What about engines that push the envelope?
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Mobil 1 thinks there is a difference or they never would have contested it.
Yet nowadays, M1 contains group III base as well.
Mobil 1 thinks there is a difference or they never would have contested it.
Yet nowadays, M1 contains group III base as well.
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
I think it does matter and a lot of us care. The Germans care and care enough to have a law about it.
And yet it is also the Germans who have thought up of some of the most stringent PCMO oil specs currently in existence such as MB 229.5 and VW 504.00. And guess what? You do not need PAO/Ester to meet them.
I think it does matter and a lot of us care. The Germans care and care enough to have a law about it.
And yet it is also the Germans who have thought up of some of the most stringent PCMO oil specs currently in existence such as MB 229.5 and VW 504.00. And guess what? You do not need PAO/Ester to meet them.
The most high tech base oil of today is GTL, which is considered group III.....
Does it really matter? Performance is what matters, not where it comes from or the ancestry of the oil...
Does it really matter? Performance is what matters, not where it comes from or the ancestry of the oil...
as suggested I did some research.
Here is a quote from a MolaKule post from 8/10/07 Amazing. Great minds think alike. I swear, I never saw this before.
Another definition of synthetic is: produced by synthesis, especially not of natural origin, made from basic building blocks not part of the resultant sythesis, and historically, this has been used as a definition for Group IV and V base oils.
As I have stated before, I think Mobil made a mistake by bringing the issue to a marketing association such as the BBB. What were they thinking? Most issues such as these are fought in the technical world of peer reviewed journals and with the army of scientists/chemists Mobil had, they should have been able to cast a great shadow of doubt over Castrol's claims.
I think the real sad issue here is that the marketing and sales community, instead of the scientific community, is defining lubricant chemistry.
Here is a quote from a MolaKule post from 8/10/07 Amazing. Great minds think alike. I swear, I never saw this before.
Another definition of synthetic is: produced by synthesis, especially not of natural origin, made from basic building blocks not part of the resultant sythesis, and historically, this has been used as a definition for Group IV and V base oils.
As I have stated before, I think Mobil made a mistake by bringing the issue to a marketing association such as the BBB. What were they thinking? Most issues such as these are fought in the technical world of peer reviewed journals and with the army of scientists/chemists Mobil had, they should have been able to cast a great shadow of doubt over Castrol's claims.
I think the real sad issue here is that the marketing and sales community, instead of the scientific community, is defining lubricant chemistry.
Mobil (Oz) nearly had a revolution with their techs when they started labelling GrIII as "Synthetic"...talking to an ex Castrol (Oz) chemist, they were none too happy either.
Personally, I agree that GrIII is not "synthetic", and respected Shell for holding on to their XHVI branding on Oz for longer than Mobil did their stance.
if GrIII is "synthetic", as the molecules have been messed with, then so is GrII
Personally, I agree that GrIII is not "synthetic", and respected Shell for holding on to their XHVI branding on Oz for longer than Mobil did their stance.
if GrIII is "synthetic", as the molecules have been messed with, then so is GrII
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
I think it does matter and a lot of us care. The Germans care and care enough to have a law about it.
And yet it is also the Germans who have thought up of some of the most stringent PCMO oil specs currently in existence such as MB 229.5 and VW 504.00. And guess what? You do not need PAO/Ester to meet them.
I believe way back at the time of that leaked M1 powerpoint, it mentions that they were the only company at the time who could make some of the Euro specs like 229.5 without heavy PAO. Of course, that has now changed as there are others who meet it without heavy PAO too.
I believe PAO has some strong attributes and at one time it had properties that was hard for non-PAO to match. Today, for most oil requirements and specifications, Group III+ can get you there. There was truly an advancement in these non-PAO products that has slowly reduced the number of PAO products even for tough specs like 229.5.
If you think about it, it's because the industry became more advanced and a lot of R&D got us to this point. Therefore, I see it as a real positive thing. It didn't happen overnight. A lot of advancement took place to see Group III+ reach this quality level.
PAO seems like it will still be used in some products for a while and it is also in some common products in a small percentage of the formulation. It still has a place too. It's a very high quality ingredient available to these manufacturers.
I can easily get drawn into being fascinated by the heavily PAO based products. Nevertheless, they are more of the old way of making an oil in truth. Most of the industry has moved on from relying on them so heavily.
Plus, while oil prices have went up, the difference you must spend now for a product like Mobil 1 over a conventional oil is a smaller jump in price (overall it seems at least). In that way, we have benefited from these advancements too.
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
I think it does matter and a lot of us care. The Germans care and care enough to have a law about it.
And yet it is also the Germans who have thought up of some of the most stringent PCMO oil specs currently in existence such as MB 229.5 and VW 504.00. And guess what? You do not need PAO/Ester to meet them.
I believe way back at the time of that leaked M1 powerpoint, it mentions that they were the only company at the time who could make some of the Euro specs like 229.5 without heavy PAO. Of course, that has now changed as there are others who meet it without heavy PAO too.
I believe PAO has some strong attributes and at one time it had properties that was hard for non-PAO to match. Today, for most oil requirements and specifications, Group III+ can get you there. There was truly an advancement in these non-PAO products that has slowly reduced the number of PAO products even for tough specs like 229.5.
If you think about it, it's because the industry became more advanced and a lot of R&D got us to this point. Therefore, I see it as a real positive thing. It didn't happen overnight. A lot of advancement took place to see Group III+ reach this quality level.
PAO seems like it will still be used in some products for a while and it is also in some common products in a small percentage of the formulation. It still has a place too. It's a very high quality ingredient available to these manufacturers.
I can easily get drawn into being fascinated by the heavily PAO based products. Nevertheless, they are more of the old way of making an oil in truth. Most of the industry has moved on from relying on them so heavily.
Plus, while oil prices have went up, the difference you must spend now for a product like Mobil 1 over a conventional oil is a smaller jump in price (overall it seems at least). In that way, we have benefited from these advancements too.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
I think it does matter and a lot of us care. The Germans care and care enough to have a law about it.
And all that law has resulted in is the use of made up words and marketing speak. The German manufacturers are interested in oils meeting their proprietary specifications more than having a certain base stock or another.
If every synthetic on the shelf was predominantly Group IV or Group V, none of us could afford to use it.
I am a purist about the definition, much like Mola. But we have what we have. If the oil is doing the job, great. There are some fantastic Group III oils out there (and conventionals for that matter), and also some pretty poor oils that claim to use fancy base stocks.
Finding Group IV and V SN/GF-5 oils, as I've mentioned before, is not easy, outside of some long drain applications.
I think it does matter and a lot of us care. The Germans care and care enough to have a law about it.
And all that law has resulted in is the use of made up words and marketing speak. The German manufacturers are interested in oils meeting their proprietary specifications more than having a certain base stock or another.
If every synthetic on the shelf was predominantly Group IV or Group V, none of us could afford to use it.
I am a purist about the definition, much like Mola. But we have what we have. If the oil is doing the job, great. There are some fantastic Group III oils out there (and conventionals for that matter), and also some pretty poor oils that claim to use fancy base stocks.
Finding Group IV and V SN/GF-5 oils, as I've mentioned before, is not easy, outside of some long drain applications.
On the one hand, it is better to know and to not be tricked into thinking we are getting something that is not truly synthetic.
On the other hand, oil is so complicated, the average person would be none the wiser if more technical information was given to them.
Marketing that is clear and honest is hard to find but some trends are helping. Firstly manufacturer specs somewhat cut through whether oil is synthetic or semi syn, dino or whatever. In that regard Dexos is huge because it is pretty much promoted as a brand that cuts across oil brands.
Secondly, oil life monitors suggest and educate owners that oils that meet spec are equal.
Manufacturers are then left trying to convince us their oil is better than another. And let's face it, very few on BITOG have a factual basis for believing any oil will perform better than another, so the oil companies are spot on with how they market their oils not just to the average joe but to many here as well.
On the other hand, oil is so complicated, the average person would be none the wiser if more technical information was given to them.
Marketing that is clear and honest is hard to find but some trends are helping. Firstly manufacturer specs somewhat cut through whether oil is synthetic or semi syn, dino or whatever. In that regard Dexos is huge because it is pretty much promoted as a brand that cuts across oil brands.
Secondly, oil life monitors suggest and educate owners that oils that meet spec are equal.
Manufacturers are then left trying to convince us their oil is better than another. And let's face it, very few on BITOG have a factual basis for believing any oil will perform better than another, so the oil companies are spot on with how they market their oils not just to the average joe but to many here as well.
Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
I remember seeing a Japanese pds a few years ago (way before the Visom powerpoint) that said the M1 15W50 was a grp IV/V oil. Now that the Visom grp III stuff came about,I wonder if this is still the case? BUT,the Visom powerpoint said all M1 oils were "shifting from pao to grp III without alerting the consumers". That's the only current evidence I've seen.
That "Visom grp III stuff" has been in use for a decade now. That pdf at the time bitogers found it was at least 2 yrs old, and the info in it even older.
I remember seeing a Japanese pds a few years ago (way before the Visom powerpoint) that said the M1 15W50 was a grp IV/V oil. Now that the Visom grp III stuff came about,I wonder if this is still the case? BUT,the Visom powerpoint said all M1 oils were "shifting from pao to grp III without alerting the consumers". That's the only current evidence I've seen.
That "Visom grp III stuff" has been in use for a decade now. That pdf at the time bitogers found it was at least 2 yrs old, and the info in it even older.
Hermann
Site Donor 2023
My current oil stash is the FREE group. It makes me the happiest, as any of them will protect for at least 6 months under any driving condition.
I look at it this way. in certain applications. G-IV/G-V is better. like racing or a serious built engine that gets beat on as a daily driver...
the better the base stock to start building with, IMO using the right Additives you'll have a much better oil than any G-III could dream of. and that for me is enough to be a Amsoil Signature series fan, and dominator line fan.
but g-III oils have they're place.
the better the base stock to start building with, IMO using the right Additives you'll have a much better oil than any G-III could dream of. and that for me is enough to be a Amsoil Signature series fan, and dominator line fan.
but g-III oils have they're place.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: Flareside302
I look at it this way. in certain applications. G-IV/G-V is better. like racing or a serious built engine that gets beat on as a daily driver...
the better the base stock to start building with, IMO using the right Additives you'll have a much better oil than any G-III could dream of. and that for me is enough to be a Amsoil Signature series fan, and dominator line fan.
but g-III oils have they're place.
Seriously built engines?
I'd argue that applications like the Ford Shelby GT500, GT1000, the ZR1, basically anything wearing an AMG or ///M badge, the GT-R, Porsche....etc are the most demanding applications. They have to make that kind of power and continue to do so for well beyond their warranty period to retain their prestige.
And the common thread with those applications is that they are covered by a manufacturer cert/approval process. There's no requirement for a specific base oil, there is a requirement for a specific level of PERFORMANCE.
Oils like M1 0w-40, PU 5w-40, these oils meet the performance requirements for most of those applications yet do not meet your personal definition of "better" because they are not predominantly G-IV/V.
Porsche uses M1 0w-40 in their race cars, as we've had confirmed on here multiple times. GM uses it in their Corvette Race Program cars. This seems to rather boldly contradict the premise of your post.
I look at it this way. in certain applications. G-IV/G-V is better. like racing or a serious built engine that gets beat on as a daily driver...
the better the base stock to start building with, IMO using the right Additives you'll have a much better oil than any G-III could dream of. and that for me is enough to be a Amsoil Signature series fan, and dominator line fan.
but g-III oils have they're place.
Seriously built engines?
I'd argue that applications like the Ford Shelby GT500, GT1000, the ZR1, basically anything wearing an AMG or ///M badge, the GT-R, Porsche....etc are the most demanding applications. They have to make that kind of power and continue to do so for well beyond their warranty period to retain their prestige.
And the common thread with those applications is that they are covered by a manufacturer cert/approval process. There's no requirement for a specific base oil, there is a requirement for a specific level of PERFORMANCE.
Oils like M1 0w-40, PU 5w-40, these oils meet the performance requirements for most of those applications yet do not meet your personal definition of "better" because they are not predominantly G-IV/V.
Porsche uses M1 0w-40 in their race cars, as we've had confirmed on here multiple times. GM uses it in their Corvette Race Program cars. This seems to rather boldly contradict the premise of your post.
- Status
Similar threads
