Cross Climate 2 review

ATD is not the only tire distributor, ya know.
Yes I know but in order to get my discount it has to be from them. One of the sites had them cheaper but then have to worry about them being shipped and stock issues. I’ve ran into cases where it says something is in stock you order it then it ends up not being in stock cause the website didn’t update.
 
That’s a huge drop, I only lost about 1 mpg when I made the switch on my 2018 Rav4. I have had mine for about 1k and they have been rock solid but no real snow experience with them yet either…
Well he installed them in september.
so sept--->december
I lost 10% mpg from seasonal change myself....

I could see 10% drop from some ecoturd tires but not 10% from an aftermarket rt43.

Seems unusually severe
I lost 10% on my forester changing from the yoko g91 Which were bad to the point of being blown out of your lane in moderate winds...
to kumho 4x ku22's which is a UHP W speed rated tire.
 
They should. Have you checked the Swedish websites for those brands?

I think the question was related to the snowflake on a mountain symbol being a trademark of the Rubber Manufacters' Association and the Rubber Association of Canada. It was at the very least initially a North American standard. And I can't seem to find much about the RMA other than old stuff. They might have been renamed? I'm getting hits for the US Tire Manufacturers Association.


USTMA_TISB_37_0.pdf
 
I think the question was related to the snowflake on a mountain symbol being a trademark of the Rubber Manufacters' Association and the Rubber Association of Canada. It was at the very least initially a North American standard. And I can't seem to find much about the RMA other than old stuff. They might have been renamed? I'm getting hits for the US Tire Manufacturers Association.


USTMA_TISB_37_0.pdf
The 3PMSF is used on the EU tire label also

40912A3C-6712-4323-8435-5EF71E3609C3.jpg
 
My Swedish is rather poor.
I figured that if somebody from Sweden (supposedly) claims that it is illegal to use them I wonder if it is true. If they are sold in the Seden then it means they are legal.

Krzys
 
The 3PMSF is used on the EU tire label also

View attachment 80986

I understand that but I understood that previous comment to be more of a question as to whether or not a European spec tire would want to license a North American trademark. I see a lot of things that are confusing because the 3MPSF symbol and standard was clearly that of the RMA and RAC from the late 90s. But there's a whole lot of stuff on European tire websites that claims that it was introduced as part of a European regulation. Which may be true, but that wouldn't be due to European regulations adopting a North American industry standard and symbol and not being created as a European standard.

Here's Goodyear:

500_3pmsf-500865.png
In 2012, the EU regulation introduced the Alpine or Three Peak Mountain Snowflake (3PMSF) sidewall symbol to show a tyre had passed certain tests related to performance on snow covered roads. Tyres carrying the 3PMSF marking provide proven increased traction in comparison to a standard reference tyre.​

I found this, which claims that somehow European regulators allow the 3MPSF symbol as a result of European regulations. Which then makes it sound like Europeans created it.


Or the latest (they call it the "Alpine Symbol".

 
My Swedish is rather poor.
I figured that if somebody from Sweden (supposedly) claims that it is illegal to use them I wonder if it is true. If they are sold in the Seden then it means they are legal.

Krzys

I'm frankly confused because there seems to be some sort of disconnect between the use of the 3PMSF in North America and in Europe. But it was clearly something that was created by a combination of American and Canadian industry associations in 1999. That standard has been used in at least one Canadian province (Quebec) as required for most vehicles registered and driven in Quebec during certain winter periods.
In 1999, The U.S. Tire Manufacturers Association (USTMA) and the Rubber Association of Canada (RAC) agreed on a performance based standard to identify passenger and light truck tires that attain a traction index equal to, or greater than 110 (compared to a reference tire which is rated 100) during the specified American Society for Testing and Materials traction tests on packed snow. The standard helps ensure drivers can easily identify tires that provide a higher level of snow traction, and tires meeting that standard are branded with the three-peak mountain snowflake (3PMSF) symbol.​
From November 2012, UNECE Regulation 117, to be implemented in the EU through Regulation (EC) 661/2009, requires that for tyres to be used in winter conditions a minimum level of performance on snow (braking and traction) needs to be achieved. If the tyre meets the criteria of an ad hoc performance test, it can be marked with the new three-peak mountain snowflake (3PMSF) symbol is an additional but not mandatory marking. The “M+S” marking, however, will remain as an allowed marking, even if not linked by law to a minimum threshold in winter conditions. In synthesis, 3PMSF marking: is a sufficient condition for the tyre to fall under the definition of winter tyres; shows that the tyre, designed for snowy and icy road conditions, can be fitted even during periods of driving restrictions during the winter season; demonstrates that tyre’s winter performance has been confirmed through a specific test whose aspects have been defined by international institutions. The 3PMSF marking is a symbol of winter excellence. In order to earn the EU mark of excellent winter performance Pirelli focused on traction by deepening grooves and optimising the tread direction, thereby increasing tyre life and performance even on the coldest days.​
 
michelin--
M+S means mud and snow.
This marking indicates that the tyre is better suited to snowy or muddy roads than standard models (summer tyres).
Be aware that this marking does not require passing a certified test and is entirely up to the manufacturer.
Marking indicating that the tyre is, according to European rulings, a “snow” tyre but performances under winter conditions have not been subject to testing. Regulations are evolving, and it is the 3PMSF marking that is becoming the norm in Europe today.
in theory, a**hole producer could write m+s on summer tire.. and nothing would stop him doing so...
3PMSF winter tyres
The 3PMSF symbol indicates that the tyres are both reliable and safe for driving in snow.
The 3PMSF marking is awarded by a certified laboratory.

To qualify for this marking, the tyre must have been tested according to a standardised regulatory method and performed to a satisfactory standard in terms of both mobility and safety on snow.

This symbol is increasingly becoming the norm for recognising a good winter tyre.
The 3PMSF symbol (3 Peak Mountain Snow Flake) is easily recognisable: a snowflake surrounded by 3 mountain peaks. By regulation, it is always accompanied by the M+S marking.
 
It seems really confusing because it looks like European regulators adopted the 3PMSF symbol and act as if they (or a UN agency) designed it. But it was originally a North American industry designation. As far as I can tell the standard tests required are different between EU and RAC/USTMA, but since it's a minimum standard it's possible for a tire to pass both. The North American standards are via ASTM reference tests, while the EU establishes certification with ISO tests. The testing might be similar though.
 
In Sweden, the government has issued a list of allowable (real) winter tyres up until 2019, where EU regulations have put the brake on for it to continue. As said above, the 3PMSF is from UN ECE R117 here now, and is a minimum standard, not particularly demanding when looking at performance tests. Tire shops here categorize winter tyres under 1. studded tires, 2. nordic studless tires, 3. european studless tires. All have 3PMSF and the useless M+S marking. A big difference here is the shore number. In this case means how soft the pattern rubber is when it is cold. European studless tires have a harder rubber, which suits very mild winter conditions, like wet roads at +3C, for example. Nordic studless tires and the studded tires with lower shore numbers usually is less good at those mild winter conditions, but is increasingly good when it is really cold, or in heavy snow or black ice. The nordic ones was the ones that usually was on the approved list.

In southern Sweden the european ones can suit many of the days in the winter, but when passing Gothenburg and above a nordic tyre will be the best choice. Lots of winter tyre testing here in all types of conditions, and the nordic ones gets ratings far above the european ones, with usually the studded ones a little step above the nordic unstudded ones again. Tests with "all-season" tyres after a summer of use shows that the winter ability is hurt! Generally it is recommended not to use them here, and should be avoided in the summer too. Again tyre tests here show that the european studless tyres are too soft in the rubber for summer use, so they overheat and wear quickly, and then can grip way less, and the summer tires are way better on wet roads than the european studless ones, because the summer tires do expel the water much more effectively. This is what I mean by the all seasons/european studless tires that they do not work optimal in the summer, nor in the winter. Maybe they work optimal in a total of a couple of months in the year when the roads are suited to them, but then again they would work suboptimal in the 10 remaining months of the year.

But after having bought a car with CC2 and driven it, I can surely say that they feel like summer tires on the winter compared to the studded Nokian Hakkapelliita I have on the car for winter equipment. There is absolutely no way I would send my family in a car with CC2 on the winter!
 
In the USA (and probably Canada) the eqivalents are:

1. studded tires - studded tires
2. nordic studless tires - studless tires
3. european studless tires - performance tires

Unique to the market are studable tires. These are tires that are designed for studs but without studs.
Some states (remember the US part of the USA, each state has quite room for local laws) forbid use of studs.

Krzys
 
In Sweden, the government has issued a list of allowable (real) winter tyres up until 2019, where EU regulations have put the brake on for it to continue. As said above, the 3PMSF is from UN ECE R117 here now, and is a minimum standard, not particularly demanding when looking at performance tests. Tire shops here categorize winter tyres under 1. studded tires, 2. nordic studless tires, 3. european studless tires. All have 3PMSF and the useless M+S marking. A big difference here is the shore number. In this case means how soft the pattern rubber is when it is cold. European studless tires have a harder rubber, which suits very mild winter conditions, like wet roads at +3C, for example. Nordic studless tires and the studded tires with lower shore numbers usually is less good at those mild winter conditions, but is increasingly good when it is really cold, or in heavy snow or black ice. The nordic ones was the ones that usually was on the approved list.

In southern Sweden the european ones can suit many of the days in the winter, but when passing Gothenburg and above a nordic tyre will be the best choice. Lots of winter tyre testing here in all types of conditions, and the nordic ones gets ratings far above the european ones, with usually the studded ones a little step above the nordic unstudded ones again. Tests with "all-season" tyres after a summer of use shows that the winter ability is hurt! Generally it is recommended not to use them here, and should be avoided in the summer too. Again tyre tests here show that the european studless tyres are too soft in the rubber for summer use, so they overheat and wear quickly, and then can grip way less, and the summer tires are way better on wet roads than the european studless ones, because the summer tires do expel the water much more effectively. This is what I mean by the all seasons/european studless tires that they do not work optimal in the summer, nor in the winter. Maybe they work optimal in a total of a couple of months in the year when the roads are suited to them, but then again they would work suboptimal in the 10 remaining months of the year.

But after having bought a car with CC2 and driven it, I can surely say that they feel like summer tires on the winter compared to the studded Nokian Hakkapelliita I have on the car for winter equipment. There is absolutely no way I would send my family in a car with CC2 on the winter!

If you take a Nokian Hakkpeliitta down to a Central European area, you might regret it as it may more susceptible to hydroplaning since conditions down there are more wet-cold (and cold-dry, so handling is more compromised).

All tires have their compromises. Choose your compromise.
 
These are on my list for my wife's '14 CR-V. She has the Defender LTX M/S now and she has about 55k on them. There is still decent tread left so hoping to get to the 70k they are rated for. She said last winter they still felt good in the snow. If/when they are still available when I need tires on my '18 Legacy Sport I am considering them for that car too. We both drive both cars so I would rather have something a little safer in the snow and give up some performance. I was considering the Pilot Sport AS 4 but I changed my mind.
 
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