Cost and Benefit
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The thing is, you're stretching out an already long engine lifespan in todays engines. It's very rare that you can keep a car around long enough to see the difference in engine life alone.
What you're manipulating is that 10% of the leftovers from the "90% of all wear occurs at startup" horse hooky that oil companies shove in our faces. You're also eliminating about 90% of the dirt that can end up residing in the engine. That is, deposit formation ..which can surely be the cause of performance problems, will probably be radically reduced.
The cost benefit is clearly in favor of the bypass filter if you're a 3k/3m type. You're down to $8 a year in expenses vs. $40 (4x $10) a year. Not too long to pay back time ..and you have a much cleaner engine. If you go over a certain mileage a year ..then the profile changes since your eliminating most of the insult to the oil just due to the warmed up operation. There you tend to lean toward the longer term benefits of lower deposits ..but you're using more oil over a year's time. Someone doing 15k a year can surely find an oil to last 6 months. This is where the cost/benefit gets blurred, imo.
[ July 20, 2006, 02:34 PM: Message edited by: Gary Allan ]
What you're manipulating is that 10% of the leftovers from the "90% of all wear occurs at startup" horse hooky that oil companies shove in our faces. You're also eliminating about 90% of the dirt that can end up residing in the engine. That is, deposit formation ..which can surely be the cause of performance problems, will probably be radically reduced.
The cost benefit is clearly in favor of the bypass filter if you're a 3k/3m type. You're down to $8 a year in expenses vs. $40 (4x $10) a year. Not too long to pay back time ..and you have a much cleaner engine. If you go over a certain mileage a year ..then the profile changes since your eliminating most of the insult to the oil just due to the warmed up operation. There you tend to lean toward the longer term benefits of lower deposits ..but you're using more oil over a year's time. Someone doing 15k a year can surely find an oil to last 6 months. This is where the cost/benefit gets blurred, imo.
[ July 20, 2006, 02:34 PM: Message edited by: Gary Allan ]
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opps
carock, without disputing what you've seen or experienced in any way, can you prove to me empirically that bypass-equipped, gasoline-powered passenger-car engines last a statistically significant longer time than those not so equipped? I have a bypass system that I picked up used and I no longer use it (pending an upcoming UOA, I might go back to it). Even so, purchase cost + running costs + time value of money appear to make it not cost-effective in my circumstance. Though, I drive an extremely low cost per mile vehicle.
Other than the complete obvious problems (i.e. oil lines melting on exhaust pipes), the not-so-obvious problem that you may run into is the locations of your hardware. How you install the BP filter and run the oil lines will influence the difficulty of some car repairs. For example, I have a home-made bracket attached to the battery tray that holds two bypass filters. When I had to replace my transmission, my mechanic also had to move the filters out of the way. That added to the price of the repair. So my advice would be to make it very easy to remove the hardware and to remove it when you need a mechanic to work on it.
Easy enough to prove. Buy two new cars and put a bypass on one. Keep both 20 years and report back here, we'll be waiting.
Scientific proof from SAE about engine life span improvements is overwhelming for diesels. Gasoline engines have fewer back to back double blind tests. None the less, those few tests that have been done point to the same result. Increased longevity of components in the entire valve train, turbo bearings, main bearings, timing chains,piston pins, and seals from running bypass filtration.You get more test results searching the Royal Society of Engineers, and the Italian Techno Spa. I can't do Japanese searches yet. It is not just the engine, but especially the automatic transmission that will benefit. I think there is enough factual evidence to put the burden of proof on those who doubt the effectiveness of good filtration. A bypass filter will save you some repairs. Just thinking of all the repairs I have made that could have been prevented or delayed with good filtration...
Am I wrong, or do people not include the reduced maintenance costs when using a good bypass filter? All hard data I can find points to longer engine life (double your engine life span) and fewer repairs when using a bypass filter. People look at the cost of a new Frantz and say "I'll never get my money back in oil saving". I think they miss the point entirely.You not only extend the life of your engine or automatic transmission, but you also save on repairs. How much is that worth? I work on really expensive cars, so if I can save one repair, it paid for itself several times. New Mercedes 500SL timing chain anyone? Also, people keep assuming that their Hondas and Toyotas will last forever with regular maintenance. I see plenty of Hondas and Toyotas in for major repairs or service to the drivetrain after 100,000 miles.
Another bypass filter cost vs. benefit thread?
As far as I know, the only barriers to realizing bypass filter benefits are installation and ignorance. If everyone understood their value and could get one easily installed we'd all be running them.
As far as I know, the only barriers to realizing bypass filter benefits are installation and ignorance. If everyone understood their value and could get one easily installed we'd all be running them.
Any pursuit or persuasion in life will always carry the "doubting Thomas" factor. This is simply a personality trait these individuals randomly choose to apply to various pusuits and persuasions in life. Ignore them, for they know not what they do.
And OBTW, if you have lines melting and mechanics causing issues with your filters, you are probably well-advised to leave the filter off the car. I'll certainly agree with that.
And OBTW, if you have lines melting and mechanics causing issues with your filters, you are probably well-advised to leave the filter off the car. I'll certainly agree with that.
The arguement is not that clean oil is good
, it's just the cost. If you keep a car 3 years don't bother
. In fact you can skip most maintenance tasks altogether
. Cange the oil three times along with the filter, do the cabin air filter and the engine air filter, and check the tires a few times. Then just trade it in and get the next new car
.
If you are reading this post, you're probably not one of these people.
If you are reading this post, you're probably not one of these people.
Carock, I do not dispute the proof for diesel engines (as relates to agricultural, industrial, and commercial use particularly). I am not aware of the information for gasoline engines in passenger-car service. That's part of why I asked. Also, what I asked was not whether the reduced wear was real, but whether it was worth its cost. I'd actually like to run a bypass system, at least in theory, but I also need to not throw good money after bad.
So, do you have any of the kind information I asked about? I'd genuinely like the info, and any links you can send me would be appreciated. You can PM if preferred.
So, do you have any of the kind information I asked about? I'd genuinely like the info, and any links you can send me would be appreciated. You can PM if preferred.
Let's ignore the bypass filter tests performed by Amsoil, Frantz, or Mann on gasoline engines. Fiat (IVECO) did a direct comparison of bypass filters on turbo gasoline and turbo diesel engines, finding the lifespan improvements to be similar.Check the "SAE on Bypass filtration" for the links. Be prepared to read Italian.
Using SAE data we can quickly infer the results for gasoline engines because the following papers directly compare wear levels from oil contaminates. Also, the transmission articles are included.
SAE#65865 Oil FIltration and Lifter Wear
SAE# 952557 Total Filtration: The Influnece of Filter Selection on Engine Wear, Emissions, and Performance
SAE# 952557 Influence of Filter Selection On Engine Wear, Emissions, and Performance
SAE# 892112 Gasoline Engine Camshaft Wear:The Culprit Is Blow-By
SAE# 860374 Wear Mechanisms in Moderate Temperature Gasoline Engine Service
SAE# 2002-01-0867 Automatic transmission Hydraulic System Cleanliness- The Effects of Operating Conditions, Measurement Techniques, and High-Efficiency Filters
SAE 2001-01-0372 Advances In Automatic Transmission Cleanliness
SAE# 1999-01-0004 Optimizing Automatic Transmission Filtration
It is also possible to read the many results from diesel tests and compare them to gasoline engines based on the relative particle counts. What you find is that the difference in particle counts is not that great. Diesel engines typically use larger sump capacities to dilute their contaminate levels.
Using SAE data we can quickly infer the results for gasoline engines because the following papers directly compare wear levels from oil contaminates. Also, the transmission articles are included.
SAE#65865 Oil FIltration and Lifter Wear
SAE# 952557 Total Filtration: The Influnece of Filter Selection on Engine Wear, Emissions, and Performance
SAE# 952557 Influence of Filter Selection On Engine Wear, Emissions, and Performance
SAE# 892112 Gasoline Engine Camshaft Wear:The Culprit Is Blow-By
SAE# 860374 Wear Mechanisms in Moderate Temperature Gasoline Engine Service
SAE# 2002-01-0867 Automatic transmission Hydraulic System Cleanliness- The Effects of Operating Conditions, Measurement Techniques, and High-Efficiency Filters
SAE 2001-01-0372 Advances In Automatic Transmission Cleanliness
SAE# 1999-01-0004 Optimizing Automatic Transmission Filtration
It is also possible to read the many results from diesel tests and compare them to gasoline engines based on the relative particle counts. What you find is that the difference in particle counts is not that great. Diesel engines typically use larger sump capacities to dilute their contaminate levels.
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