I’m wondering about the efficiency of the cooler line exchange method where you are continuously removing and adding fluid. Is there any data out there? I would expect that it more efficient than repeated drain and fill – but by how much. For example on a 3 qt drain on a 5 qt capacity I would be at 60% fresh fluid on a single drain and fill and then at 84 % fresh after a second drain and fill after good mixing of the first fill. What would be the % fresh of adding 6 qts to a 5 qt capacity transmission through the exchange method?. Anybody know?
Cooler Line Exchange Efficiency
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Originally Posted By: Rand
what automatic takes 5qts and you can drain 3?
Accords, Camrys, plus many others.
what automatic takes 5qts and you can drain 3?
Accords, Camrys, plus many others.
I know a Mazda 6 does cause I just did it.
Originally Posted By: greasegunn
I’m wondering about the efficiency of the cooler line exchange method where you are continuously removing and adding fluid. Is there any data out there? I would expect that it more efficient than repeated drain and fill – but by how much. For example on a 3 qt drain on a 5 qt capacity I would be at 60% fresh fluid on a single drain and fill and then at 84 % fresh after a second drain and fill after good mixing of the first fill. What would be the % fresh of adding 6 qts to a 5 qt capacity transmission through the exchange method?. Anybody know?
The Robinair machine I use a bunch says like 95% in cooling line mode as compared to 86-89% in dipstick mode. Cheaper to drain and fill cause that thing cost like 7k...
I’m wondering about the efficiency of the cooler line exchange method where you are continuously removing and adding fluid. Is there any data out there? I would expect that it more efficient than repeated drain and fill – but by how much. For example on a 3 qt drain on a 5 qt capacity I would be at 60% fresh fluid on a single drain and fill and then at 84 % fresh after a second drain and fill after good mixing of the first fill. What would be the % fresh of adding 6 qts to a 5 qt capacity transmission through the exchange method?. Anybody know?
The Robinair machine I use a bunch says like 95% in cooling line mode as compared to 86-89% in dipstick mode. Cheaper to drain and fill cause that thing cost like 7k...
Originally Posted By: satinsilver
Originally Posted By: Rand
what automatic takes 5qts and you can drain 3?
Accords, Camrys, plus many others.
thats just not true
2001 accord you get between 2.1 and 2.5qt out.
drain and fill is usually less than 50% at least on every vehicle I've done. I'm sure some actually are over 50% but its not as common as your post makes it out to be.
60% imo is pretty rare.
Originally Posted By: greasegunn
I know a Mazda 6 does cause I just did it.
which year mazda 6 .. the one i did was 7.2qt capacity and I got around 3.2qts out. IIRC
thats 44.4% a farcry from 60% with one drain and fill.
Originally Posted By: Rand
what automatic takes 5qts and you can drain 3?
Accords, Camrys, plus many others.
thats just not true
2001 accord you get between 2.1 and 2.5qt out.
drain and fill is usually less than 50% at least on every vehicle I've done. I'm sure some actually are over 50% but its not as common as your post makes it out to be.
60% imo is pretty rare.
Originally Posted By: greasegunn
I know a Mazda 6 does cause I just did it.
which year mazda 6 .. the one i did was 7.2qt capacity and I got around 3.2qts out. IIRC
thats 44.4% a farcry from 60% with one drain and fill.
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The 5spd auto in my Mazda3 (the same box used in the 6) I am able to drain 3-3/4 qts out of what I understand to be a 8.6 qt system.
I could be wrong on that 8.6 number, I saw that on a Mazda forum a while back......
(My Sequoia drains 4 qts out of a 16 qt system, the 240sx drains 2-1/2 qts out of a 9 qt system, and my Corolla drains 2 qts out of an 8 qt system.)
I cant see any cooling-line flush being 95% efficient. Maybe it is, I dont know. Seeing how fluid flow through a torque converter isnt exactly linear (like sucking water through a straw), I'd say doing a traditional flush is probably similar to filling a 10 gallon aquarium full of muddy water, then putting a running garden hose on one side of the aquarium pumping in 10 gallons of clean water, and using another hose to suck 10 gallons of water out of the other side of the aquarium. What that efficiency % would be, I have no idea, but 95% seems high to me. On the other hand, I really have no idea what the number would be and I did absolutely no research to arrive at that opinion...
I could be wrong on that 8.6 number, I saw that on a Mazda forum a while back......
(My Sequoia drains 4 qts out of a 16 qt system, the 240sx drains 2-1/2 qts out of a 9 qt system, and my Corolla drains 2 qts out of an 8 qt system.)
I cant see any cooling-line flush being 95% efficient. Maybe it is, I dont know. Seeing how fluid flow through a torque converter isnt exactly linear (like sucking water through a straw), I'd say doing a traditional flush is probably similar to filling a 10 gallon aquarium full of muddy water, then putting a running garden hose on one side of the aquarium pumping in 10 gallons of clean water, and using another hose to suck 10 gallons of water out of the other side of the aquarium. What that efficiency % would be, I have no idea, but 95% seems high to me. On the other hand, I really have no idea what the number would be and I did absolutely no research to arrive at that opinion...
Originally Posted By: greasegunn
Anybody know?
"When doing a transfusion style exchange, a good general rule is to exchange 20% more fluid than the total vehicle capacity, which will give a 90% plus rate of exchange rate."
http://www.cloreautomotive.com/uploaded_files/product_knowledge/12_CPK ATF Exchange.pdf
Using your numbers, two drain & fills (six quarts) - 84% exchange
One transfusion (six quarts/20% more than total capacity) - 90%+ exchange
Anybody know?
"When doing a transfusion style exchange, a good general rule is to exchange 20% more fluid than the total vehicle capacity, which will give a 90% plus rate of exchange rate."
http://www.cloreautomotive.com/uploaded_files/product_knowledge/12_CPK ATF Exchange.pdf
Using your numbers, two drain & fills (six quarts) - 84% exchange
One transfusion (six quarts/20% more than total capacity) - 90%+ exchange
Originally Posted By: quint
I cant see any cooling-line flush being 95% efficient. Maybe it is, I dont know. Seeing how fluid flow through a torque converter isnt exactly linear (like sucking water through a straw), I'd say doing a traditional flush is probably similar to filling a 10 gallon aquarium full of muddy water, then putting a running garden hose on one side of the aquarium pumping in 10 gallons of clean water, and using another hose to suck 10 gallons of water out of the other side of the aquarium. What that efficiency % would be, I have no idea, but 95% seems high to me. On the other hand, I really have no idea what the number would be and I did absolutely no research to arrive at that opinion...
using the exact same thought process makes those drain and fill numbers just as screwy!
I cant see any cooling-line flush being 95% efficient. Maybe it is, I dont know. Seeing how fluid flow through a torque converter isnt exactly linear (like sucking water through a straw), I'd say doing a traditional flush is probably similar to filling a 10 gallon aquarium full of muddy water, then putting a running garden hose on one side of the aquarium pumping in 10 gallons of clean water, and using another hose to suck 10 gallons of water out of the other side of the aquarium. What that efficiency % would be, I have no idea, but 95% seems high to me. On the other hand, I really have no idea what the number would be and I did absolutely no research to arrive at that opinion...
using the exact same thought process makes those drain and fill numbers just as screwy!
I've done plenty of spreadsheets to understand how many drain and fills are required to achieve x% overall change.
Approximately, to go from a 90% change to a 95% change you need a third more new fluid.
To get a 90% change you need about double the system capacity.
One flaw I see in most methods for cooler line changes is that the first step that pumps a few quarts out until the level falls below the pick up, will have as their next step the addition of new fluid into the pan which still contains old fluid.
I would mityvac the pan and then add new fluid and then begin the recommended process where old fluid gets pushed out. I have no idea how much mixing happens within the system but this is unavoidable. If you're really concerned, do it twice which is going to be the same quantity of fluid required for multiple drain and fills that gets you to only 90% exchanged. The cooler line method twice is going to be as good as 100%.
Approximately, to go from a 90% change to a 95% change you need a third more new fluid.
To get a 90% change you need about double the system capacity.
One flaw I see in most methods for cooler line changes is that the first step that pumps a few quarts out until the level falls below the pick up, will have as their next step the addition of new fluid into the pan which still contains old fluid.
I would mityvac the pan and then add new fluid and then begin the recommended process where old fluid gets pushed out. I have no idea how much mixing happens within the system but this is unavoidable. If you're really concerned, do it twice which is going to be the same quantity of fluid required for multiple drain and fills that gets you to only 90% exchanged. The cooler line method twice is going to be as good as 100%.
Originally Posted By: Ramblejam
Originally Posted By: greasegunn
Anybody know?
"When doing a transfusion style exchange, a good general rule is to exchange 20% more fluid than the total vehicle capacity, which will give a 90% plus rate of exchange rate."
http://www.cloreautomotive.com/uploaded_files/product_knowledge/12_CPK ATF Exchange.pdf
Using your numbers, two drain & fills (six quarts) - 84% exchange
One transfusion (six quarts/20% more than total capacity) - 90%+ exchange
Cool link. I hadn't seen anyone claim a percentage exchange before that for a transfusion.
I certainly don't know if that 90%+ figure from the link is accurate or not but I have my doubts.
At least with the drain and fill method, you can drive some and utilize the different gears between iterations. At least with some driving you can approximate perfect mixing.
With OPs figures, a third drain and fill (w/mixing)also should get up over 90%. And that's a fairly reliable value. I'd like to see more info or other reports of efficiency for the transfusion method.
Originally Posted By: greasegunn
Anybody know?
"When doing a transfusion style exchange, a good general rule is to exchange 20% more fluid than the total vehicle capacity, which will give a 90% plus rate of exchange rate."
http://www.cloreautomotive.com/uploaded_files/product_knowledge/12_CPK ATF Exchange.pdf
Using your numbers, two drain & fills (six quarts) - 84% exchange
One transfusion (six quarts/20% more than total capacity) - 90%+ exchange
Cool link. I hadn't seen anyone claim a percentage exchange before that for a transfusion.
I certainly don't know if that 90%+ figure from the link is accurate or not but I have my doubts.
At least with the drain and fill method, you can drive some and utilize the different gears between iterations. At least with some driving you can approximate perfect mixing.
With OPs figures, a third drain and fill (w/mixing)also should get up over 90%. And that's a fairly reliable value. I'd like to see more info or other reports of efficiency for the transfusion method.
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Originally Posted By: Jiblet
I'd like to see more info or other reports of efficiency for the transfusion method.
"...while exchanging more than 90% of the fluid"
http://www.boschdiagnostics.com/dsoftware/2213699_ATX300_SELL_1011.pdf
"will yield in excess of a 90% fluid exchange in a single pass"
http://www.rtitech.com/documents/2009%20...REV%2016-17.pdf
I'd like to see more info or other reports of efficiency for the transfusion method.
"...while exchanging more than 90% of the fluid"
http://www.boschdiagnostics.com/dsoftware/2213699_ATX300_SELL_1011.pdf
"will yield in excess of a 90% fluid exchange in a single pass"
http://www.rtitech.com/documents/2009%20...REV%2016-17.pdf
The way I use to do it was like Ford recommends. Unhook cooler line. Start car and when the fluid stops coming out of the cooler stop the engine. Fill with 2/3s the capacity and start the engine again. Wait until you see the color change on the fluid to the new fluid and stop engine. Connect cooler line and fill to recommended level. You use about 1 to 2 extra quarts and there is minimal mixing of the old and new fluid.
My 2012 Mazda 6 factory manual states 3 L for a drain and 5 L for an overhaul. My 2008 Honda Accord states 2.5 L at a change and 6.5 L at an overhaul. It will vary by transmission but if you are pushing fresh fluid back into a pan which has old fluid there will be mixing so you can't get a perfect exchange. I think shops do the exchange just because it is easier and faster than the drain and refill method.
Yep cooler line method is highly recommended on Taurus forums and seems to be the best method if you have the access and extra fluid.
many folks here forget that the trans has ONE WAY circulation, with tons of check valves and so forth to stop reversion.
I think the key to a good fluid exchange is draining the pan (sump) first. Most of the machine specs/info seem to presuppose not dumping the pan first. My estimate (WAG) is that if you do that, you are doing upwards of 90% on my cars). The method SHOZ outlined above... pumping the unit dry, refilling and pump until clean fluid comes out... may be just as good. I prefer as little mixing as possible.
At least on the cars I own, if I want to replace all the fluid, the cooler line exchange is the most efficacious. It's done in 30 minutes. I have easy access to the cooler lines. In the case of my blue F150, I installed a valve on the line and can put a hose on it and run it into a jug or pan.
I'm pretty much at 100K OCIs on my trucks now because I have such good filtration on them (two filters each now) and use a premium fluid. Last time I spot checked the oil cleanliness it was 13/6 on the F150 (it also has a deep pan which adds nearly five quarts of oil to the system). No signs of oxidation either (good coolers).
The 2000 Honda Accord (from which you can only get 3.1 quarts from the drain from a total system capacity of 7.6 quarts, about 40 percent) normally got a D&F every other oil change and a full exchange at 60K. That was overkill according to my UOAs, despite how the fluid looked (Z1 gets dark fast). SInce I added a cooler line filter, I adopted a 50-60K interval tentatively. When the car hits 100K total miles this year, I am going to do an exchange, UOA the oil (it will have 40-50K on it) replace the inline filter and likely go 60K if the oil checks out good (if Z1 checks out good at that interval, it's logical to assume something better will hold up better). The exact replacement oil is TBD... I have the obligatory agonizing period to finish before I pull the trigger on the best right choice.
At least on the cars I own, if I want to replace all the fluid, the cooler line exchange is the most efficacious. It's done in 30 minutes. I have easy access to the cooler lines. In the case of my blue F150, I installed a valve on the line and can put a hose on it and run it into a jug or pan.
I'm pretty much at 100K OCIs on my trucks now because I have such good filtration on them (two filters each now) and use a premium fluid. Last time I spot checked the oil cleanliness it was 13/6 on the F150 (it also has a deep pan which adds nearly five quarts of oil to the system). No signs of oxidation either (good coolers).
The 2000 Honda Accord (from which you can only get 3.1 quarts from the drain from a total system capacity of 7.6 quarts, about 40 percent) normally got a D&F every other oil change and a full exchange at 60K. That was overkill according to my UOAs, despite how the fluid looked (Z1 gets dark fast). SInce I added a cooler line filter, I adopted a 50-60K interval tentatively. When the car hits 100K total miles this year, I am going to do an exchange, UOA the oil (it will have 40-50K on it) replace the inline filter and likely go 60K if the oil checks out good (if Z1 checks out good at that interval, it's logical to assume something better will hold up better). The exact replacement oil is TBD... I have the obligatory agonizing period to finish before I pull the trigger on the best right choice.
My old work car is a 1996 V-6 Camry that I bought new 300,000 miles ago. Build date 10/95 and purchase date 01/96. First pan drop & screen change @ 50,000, then every 30 to 35,000 miles, with a fluid transfer via cooler line at 150,000. Since then I simply do pan drains every other engine oil change, which is around every 12,000 miles. It drains 2 & a half qts., which I replace with Mobil-1 ATF. The result? The old 541E has never had any repairs whatsoever, only the aforementioned fluid changes. It still shifts as "Camry-smooth" as it did the day I drove it off the lot in Roswell, NM. I still drive it on several thousand mile plus trips annually...and many of those miles are at 75 and 80 MPH (legal on I-10 in West Texas). Excellence in engineering and decent maintenance are the key to automatic transmission longevity.
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