Convert Distributor Ignition to Electronic

[NICAT]

Hi.
I already posted about similar issue in previous thread and got some great advices from you, but now i have more specific request.
As far as i understand, optimal ignition timing should vary depending on the rpm, load and fuel quality.
In my case, since it is distributor based mechanical ignition timing, it is static.
There is no marking on the distributor (or on the engine) which suggest the default position.
So i am not sure what is the default position. But even if there was, there should be different position settings for different fuel octanes/ Shouldn't be ?

Anyway, Currently my distributor is on X position. The performance is very nice. Even better than it should be. Because some people who have the same model car had some test drive and they were surprised.
I am generally driving in city. And it feels nice, without any problem. But, when i am going to my village, where i have to climb hills, with extra 4 people in the car, and some heavy bags, engine starts detonting. (the load is relatively high, since car's weight is only 960Kg)
Well, i can easily prevent this by retarting the ignition, but in this case car's performance will degrade significantly. I almost feel as if it is 20% power drop.

So my question is that, if i convert distributor ignition into electronic ignition system, where knock sensor will also be involved, Would new ignition system automatically arrange the timing for the best performance while preventing the detonation under extreme loads ?
Car has G15MF GM Engine, while there is similar model, A15SMS with electronic ignition and knock sensor. Conversion is not very difficult. But wlll i get the most optimal ignition timing in this case ?

Anyway, this is not a critical problem. But it would be nice if i can do something about this. I like to make some modifications in the car in my free time. So if you have some experience of convertiong distributor ignition to electronic, please share your experience

REgards

 

[Cujet]

Most electronic ignitions will configure timing advance based on load. If it's something you can tune, it won't be hard to get it right.

 

[Chris142]

So there is no advance built into the distributor?

 

[mk378]

There are vacuum and mechanical advance systems on even very old-fashioned points distributors. The vacuum system often stops working due to deterioration of rubber parts.

If the electronic system is truly bolt and go on your engine, yes it should work better. It should work like a stock condition car of the model that had the system to begin with.

Higher octane gasoline will let you run with less knocking on advanced timing.

 

[Kira]

Fuel injected or carburetor?

If carb, check for functioning of the fuel enrichment valve(s). Power drop out upon load is a symptom.

 

[DuckRyder]

So is it a Daewoo?

I suspect that your distributor is already electronic ignition and you’re thinking of distributorless electronic ignition. Based upon pictures of the mentioned engines the SMS has coils where the distributor was.

Unless others have already done this, I suspect there is a great deal more to it than it appears on the surface... It will depend on how the original system was implemented. I think it would easier to run an aftermarket CD box that would give you the ability to manually trigger a retard when it is heavily loaded and climbing.

Does the newer version have a separate timing module or does the PCM control it?

 

[CT8]

What are you trying to gain?

 

[NICAT]

Thanks guys, for answers.
It is fuel injected engine. and the distributor is already electronic


Originally Posted By: DuckRyder
So is it a Daewoo?

I suspect that your distributor is already electronic ignition and you’re thinking of distributorless electronic ignition. Based upon pictures of the mentioned engines the SMS has coils where the distributor was.

Does the newer version have a separate timing module or does the PCM control it?


Yes sir, You are right.
Unfortunately i am thinking of distributorless electronic ignition.

Originally Posted By: DuckRyder
Unless others have already done this, I suspect there is a great deal more to it than it appears on the surface... It will depend on how the original system was implemented. I think it would easier to run an aftermarket CD box that would give you the ability to manually trigger a retard when it is heavily loaded and climbing.


I have to thank you for this idea

Because i have always imagined that something like this would be a great option if i can manually trigger a retard from cabin. But didn't know the right keywords to search the google. i have done a quick google search right now. There are some nice kits with selector switch.


Originally Posted By: DuckRyder
Does the newer version have a separate timing module or does the PCM control it?

Very likely ECU controls it, Since the mechanic who is going to do this asked me to buy a new ECU also
But i have to verify it.

Anyway, Manual retard option is great for me.
Thanks again for support.
Regards

 

[BrocLuno]

OK, so the thing to look at is how initial timing is set when the tune-up is done... If it is done with a crank trigger you are pretty well not going to be able to change much. If it is done with a trigger in the distributor (?), then there are options.

If the distributor is the sole source of initial timing, you can set it for best mileage (tuning by ear so it pings occasionally when accelerating). You can also set it for best power (max torque) which is usually about 5* less timing than best mileage. This would be the setting for going up hill heavily loaded.

One way to do this is to modify the distributor hold down clamp with a machined part that lets the distributor rotate without coming up out of the motor. Then install a push-pull cable in a well made bracket (no flimsy bits) that will rotate the distributor body the 5* needed. Pull out to advance for best mileage. Push in to retard for max torque, or the other way around, which ever you like

The reason this works like this is because under light load like easy cruising with the throttle mostly closed, the engine is running in a lean condition. So the ECU or the old vacuum/centrifugal advance system would add maximum timing advance needed to light the lean burn. As the throttle is opened, there is more fuel so the lean condition is reduced and so is the need for advance.

I suspect that the ECU is mapped wrong for your conditions/fuel. You (or your mechanic) have been adding extra timing (advanced) to get more MPG out of the fuel. But when the engine really needs to work hard, it is to much ... Are there add-on programmable chips for your vehicle?

 

[Trav]

Look in the service manual, you may need to disconnect a wire or plug before setting the base timing with a timing light then reconnect after the base timing is set.
You have an electronic distributor ignition and ECM controlled timing advance, this procedure was very common on those systems.

 

[Silk]

That's the old Opel engine, and later ones had a DIS coil pack bolted to where the dist is now...they were finned and looked pretty cool. But you'd need everything to go with it...sensors, ECU etc. Not worth the effort.

 

[NICAT]

Originally Posted By: BrocLuno

I suspect that the ECU is mapped wrong for your conditions/fuel. You (or your mechanic) have been adding extra timing (advanced) to get more MPG out of the fuel. But when the engine really needs to work hard, it is to much ... Are there add-on programmable chips for your vehicle?


Sir, Thanks for detailed explanation

In the ECU, there are jumpers to select fuel octane. It was previously set for 87 octane fuel. i changed it to 92. And then back to 87, But couldn't feel any difference on the pinging. May be setting it correctly may affect the MPG but not help with detonation durilg heavily loaded and climibing ?



Originally Posted By: BrocLuno
If the distributor is the sole source of initial timing, you can set it for best mileage (tuning by ear so it pings occasionally when accelerating). You can also set it for best power (max torque) which is usually about 5* less timing than best mileage. This would be the setting for going up hill heavily loaded.


But i am feeling power gain when advancing the ignition. How retarding it will give more torque. Can you please explain it in more details ?


Originally Posted By: Trav

You have an electronic distributor ignition and ECM controlled timing advance, this procedure was very common on those systems.

Sir, the thing i find hard to understand is, If it is distributod ignition, how ECU can change the timing ? spark plugs are directly connected to distributor

 

[Trav]

The ECM is controlling the coil firing instead of a vacuum or mechanical advance.This will give you an explanation of how the advance works.
Setting the base timing correctly on your system is important for correct advance operation and may require unplugging a wire to do it properly.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignition_timing

 

[NICAT]

Originally Posted By: Trav
The ECM is controlling the coil firing instead of a vacuum or mechanical advance.This will give you an explanation of how the advance works.
Setting the base timing correctly on your system is important for correct advance operation and may require unplugging a wire to do it properly.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignition_timing


Wow. The information you gave is invaluable. The only thing i could not understand was how it can advance the ignition? (while technically it is easy to retard it.)
Now i believe that in distributor you set the ignition too advanced, and the ECU retards it to a level where the final ignition is advanced, normal or retarded.

In my case there is an octane selecting jumpers in the ECU. Do you think they only change the ignition timing or also air/fuel mixture ratio and injection timing ?

 

[Yah-Tah-Hey]

No distributor, no high tension wiring, no problems

 

[Trav]

AFAIK the octane jumper only controls the base timing which would also limit the amount of total advance timing.
This is why setting the base timing using the service manual procedure is so important. Generally the ECM has to be prevented from setting the base timing by unplugging a connector or wire, this allows the base timing to be set at a point the ECM can control properly once it is connected.

Again AFAIK this type of system only controls ignition timing, A/F mixture, pulse width and injector timing while also controlled by the ECM depend more on crank/cam sensors, O2 sensor and MAF/MAP sensors.


http://www.enginebuildermag.com/2017/09/...nowing-science/

http://www.hotrod.com/articles/set-ignition-curves-create-optimal-performance/

http://www.hotrod.com/articles/set-ignition-curves-create-optimal-performance/

 

[NICAT]

Sir, does this mean simply changing the jumpers may not help ?
The way i do this is turning off the engine, change the jumpers and drive. Till now i have not been able to test the difference fully. Need to load car and climb. so i can see what happens.
Regards

 

[Trav]

If the base timing is not set properly the jumpers will not have the correct adjustments. Do you have a service manual for this car?

 

[NICAT]

Hi sir.
I have installed an ON/OFF switch from octane corrector cables.
Now everything is great. when the car is under high load, i switch to ON, and the engine no more detonates