Conventional Motor Oil? Why?

[sir1900]

Full synthetic oil makes many (not all) BITOGers feel warm and fuzzy inside.

Unless your vehicle requires you to use synthetic and/or >5000 mile OCI, there is nothing to gain from using a synthetic over a conventional.

 

[Arved]

Originally Posted By: Fordai
So basically, I can use conventional motor oil in my vehicles as long as it meets the API category. Even though the owner's manual recommends synthetic blend?


There is no standard (API, SAE, or otherwise) as to what constitutes a synthetic blend. If I have a 20K gal. tank car of conventional oil, and I add a thimble-full of synthetic oil, technically, and legally, I have a blend. How this blend is any different (or should be any more expensive) than the conventional oil I started with is pure marketing hyperbole.

I'm not saying this is what the oil companies do. What I am saying, is that nobody discloses how the oil is blended. Everyone considers this a trade secret. But until I'm told how much synthetic oil is mixed in with the conventional oil, I have no basis to judge the value of the product. I buy either conventional or synthetic oil, but not blends, because for all I know, all they did was add a thimble-full of synthetic oil into the tank car of conventional, and jack up the profit margin.

My point here is that unless your manufacturer describes the minimum synthetic base stock required, and you can verify that minimum amount is present in the blend you purchase, there's no way to verify that what the manufacturer assumed blend ratio is what the oil company is selling you.

If indeed the requirement is something better than conventional oil basestock, my suggestion is to bite the bullet and get a full synthetic.

 

[FutureDoc]

Originally Posted By: Fordai
So basically, I can use conventional motor oil in my vehicles as long as it meets the API category. Even though the owner's manual recommends synthetic blend?



Is this for the Ford? I assume it is "recommending" motorcraft (as it is listed as the name but not the spec) more or less but it should give you a WSS-M2C945-A spec. Actually a lot of conventional meet this spec. For example, this is the plain black-bottle Havoline spec and Ford's requirement is listed as met.

https://cglapps.chevron.com/msdspds/PDSDetailPage.aspx?docDataId=310594&docFormat=PDF

I assume Hyundai basically asks that the oil is "slippery" as they are lax on their specs often back-specing an older API class.

 

[69GTX]

Originally Posted By: FordCapriDriver
1 - It's cheaper, and people still buy it.
2 - Still the grand majority of cars on the road don't need synthetic oils to be able to run for tens of thousands of miles without issues.
3 - Modern conventional oils are great, and the real world difference compared with synthetics is barely noticeable, modern Turbo and direct injection engines certainly are better served by synthetic oils, but the average N/A Port injection gasoline engine will do just ok in regular driving conditions.


It's really not cheaper unless you're only considering the before sale and/or before rebate price. For the past 2 years I've never found a 20/30 grade of PYB, Mobil 5K, VWB, or GTX that is cheaper than what I end up paying for PP, M1, Synpower, or Edge. Never.

Until the mfg's/retailers of synthetic oils stop net pricing them at $2.00-$2.67 frequently during the course of the year, I just cannot afford conventional oils that do less and cost more. I posted this same advice over on a heavily used performance car blog and numerous members said what I was saying couldn't be true. They never see synthetic oils on sale for under $3/qt. They also aren't looking in the right places...like 95+% of the oil buying public.

 

[FCD]

Originally Posted By: Fordai
So basically, I can use conventional motor oil in my vehicles as long as it meets the API category. Even though the owner's manual recommends synthetic blend?

If you have a modern, turbo, direct injected engine i would use synthetic oils, if the engines in your cars are N/A and with port fuel injection they'll probably do ok on conventional, if you are using Synpower currently though there is no reason to switch other than cost.

 

[FCD]

Originally Posted By: 69GTX
Originally Posted By: FordCapriDriver
1 - It's cheaper, and people still buy it.
2 - Still the grand majority of cars on the road don't need synthetic oils to be able to run for tens of thousands of miles without issues.
3 - Modern conventional oils are great, and the real world difference compared with synthetics is barely noticeable, modern Turbo and direct injection engines certainly are better served by synthetic oils, but the average N/A Port injection gasoline engine will do just ok in regular driving conditions.


It's really not cheaper unless you're only considering the before sale and/or before rebate price. For the past 2 years I've never found a 20/30 grade of PYB, Mobil 5K, VWB, or GTX that is cheaper than what I end up paying for PP, M1, Synpower, or Edge. Never.

Until the mfg's/retailers of synthetic oils stop net pricing them at $2.00-$2.67 frequently during the course of the year, I just cannot afford conventional oils that do less and cost more. I posted this same advice over on a heavily used performance car blog and numerous members said what I was saying couldn't be true. They never see synthetic oils on sale for under $3/qt. They also aren't looking in the right places...like 95+% of the oil buying public.

Atleast here in Spain full synthetic oils are considerably more expensive than conventional oils on the shelves, online the prices are more level, but still synthetics are generally more expensive.

 

[FutureDoc]

Wait, what???

Please elaborate.

I think you are doing some apples and oranges here. They have rebates for conventional too.

I can find and get non-sale conventional for sub $2.50 without trying. Sub $2.00 is common, and under $1.90 if I really try. $12/$13 for a 5qt jug and a $5 rebate is not hard. Heck Napa and a few places give a easy-to-spot $1.99 quart sale. For a 3.8 quart sump, that is less than $8 for a oil change.


Now, if your car allows conventional and has a 7,500 OCI, then conventional is fine, fine, and fine. Can't be cheaper than that. Syn's real cost advantage is only when a manufacturer requires it or if you can do some extended drain. If 7,500 OCI is required for warranty, then Syn is a waste unless it is specified by the manufacturer

 

[raytseng]

Originally Posted By: MotoTribologist
I just want to add my support for the majority of the rabble here although it's been said several times already.

Because a good conventional oil does its intended job and it is much cheaper.

On to similar questions:

Why does anyone still drink regular old water when we have vitamin water now?
Why are they still making ceiling fans when there is air conditioning?
Why do they still bother manufacturing manual toothbrushes?
etcetera.......

if synthetic and conv were the same price everyone would pick the synthetic.

your other examples are interesting but not a 100% match because there are cons to the more expensive item other than cost whereas oil does the exact same thing the exact same way and exceeds on any metric you can come up with.

it would be more apt of why do people buy generic storebrand cereals like "Os" when you can have Cheerios. if price were exactly the same theyd get the cheerios.
or perhaps like the organic label.

 

[TiredTrucker]

On the diesel engine side of the equation, almost all fleets still use conventional HDEO's. The heavy duty engine OEM's don't have such issues with engines that they feel the need to tell owners to use synthetics. Detroit Diesel, for one, has a 50,000 mile oil drain interval recommendation using only a 10w30 or 15w40 conventional HDEO. The new CK-4 spec will bring a lot more syn blends into the HDEO realm. But very few commercial diesel owners use a full synthetic. All I use is blends in my commercial diesels. Would have no problem using a conventional if i needed to.

Regarding blends, yeah there really is no standard in that regard as to how much synthetic should be in the mix. Fortunately, the brand I use is up front that their blends (at least HDEO) are 25% PAO and 75% Group II+. Good enough for me. If I recall, the full syn 5w30 I use in my pickup is a PAO / Group III mix.

 

[itguy08]

Originally Posted By: Mr Nice
Dino oil in a non turbo engine will do just fine.


I don't even know if that matters. Ford, who probably has the most DI/Turbo engines on the road today makes no requirement of synthetic or synthetic blend.

I run Pennzoil Platinum in EB's because of the cleaning not because it's synthetic. The one had dealer oil in it until about 80k (now 116k) and the other led it's first 48k on who knows what?

 

[FutureDoc]

Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
On the diesel engine side of the equation, almost all fleets still use conventional HDEO's. The heavy duty engine OEM's don't have such issues with engines that they feel the need to tell owners to use synthetics. Detroit Diesel, for one, has a 50,000 mile oil drain interval recommendation using only a 10w30 or 15w40 conventional HDEO. The new CK-4 spec will bring a lot more syn blends into the HDEO realm. But very few commercial diesel owners use a full synthetic. All I use is blends in my commercial diesels. Would have no problem using a conventional if i needed to.

Regarding blends, yeah there really is no standard in that regard as to how much synthetic should be in the mix. Fortunately, the brand I use is up front that their blends (at least HDEO) are 25% PAO and 75% Group II+. Good enough for me. If I recall, the full syn 5w30 I use in my pickup is a PAO / Group III mix.


Tired: Curious, how big are those sumps you have there? Aren't we talking about an 8+ gallon capacity? I know my puny 6.0POS have 15qt and some of our other larger engine vehicles have 40qt+ worth of oil (not DD). I think that has a big role.

 

[FutureDoc]

Originally Posted By: itguy08
Originally Posted By: Mr Nice
Dino oil in a non turbo engine will do just fine.


I don't even know if that matters. Ford, who probably has the most DI/Turbo engines on the road today makes no requirement of synthetic or synthetic blend.



Hyundai has a lot of DI and turbo engines... and still specs SM no mention of needing a synthetic or blend. Does push more towards 5,000 mile intervals with the turbo DI through.

 

[SilverFusion2010]

OP I would say that it's a cost/value thing. Your average quick lube customer isn't gonna pay for the huge markup they charge for a synthetic oil change. So they get whatever SN rated bulk conventional is in the drums. It does the job just fine for 3-5k and really 7500k if that's what the OM states.

 

[blupupher]

Originally Posted By: itguy08
Originally Posted By: Mr Nice
Dino oil in a non turbo engine will do just fine.


I don't even know if that matters. Ford, who probably has the most DI/Turbo engines on the road today makes no requirement of synthetic or synthetic blend.

I run Pennzoil Platinum in EB's because of the cleaning not because it's synthetic. The one had dealer oil in it until about 80k (now 116k) and the other led it's first 48k on who knows what?

But they do have their spec that needs to be met. Yes many oils labeled as "conventional" meet this spec, but seems I read many of today's conventional labeled oils are really blends to meet certain specs.

 

[SonofJoe]

Why aren't all engine oils synthetic?

Well one answer is that there is nowhere near enough global synthetic (Group III, PAO, Ester) base oil manufacturing capacity in existence to make that even remotely possible.

It's tricky to get hold of hard, definitive up-to-date information, but I'd guess that on a global basis, today in 2017, old fashioned, solvent extracted Group I mineral oil is still the most widely used base stock. This is fast being caught up by hydrocracked and catalytically dewaxed Group II (what most Americans mean by 'conventional'). Group III (the commonest 'synthetic') runs a distant third with PAO & Ester hardly registering on the base oil Richter Scale.

 

[CKN]

Originally Posted By: FutureDoc
Originally Posted By: itguy08
Originally Posted By: Mr Nice
Dino oil in a non turbo engine will do just fine.


I don't even know if that matters. Ford, who probably has the most DI/Turbo engines on the road today makes no requirement of synthetic or synthetic blend.



Hyundai has a lot of DI and turbo engines... and still specs SM no mention of needing a synthetic or blend. Does push more towards 5,000 mile intervals with the turbo DI through.


Correct-I just purchased a 2017 Santa Fe XL and the manual says conventional oil. The manual states 7,500 mile changes-the dealer says 5,000 mile oil changes. I would plan for a 5,000 mile OCI regardless of what the dealer stated.

 

[dlundblad]

Originally Posted By: Fordai
Why is conventional motor oil still produced?


Not everything on the road needs synthetic.

 

[69GTX]

Originally Posted By: FutureDoc
Wait, what???

Please elaborate.

I think you are doing some apples and oranges here. They have rebates for conventional too.

I can find and get non-sale conventional for sub $2.50 without trying. Sub $2.00 is common, and under $1.90 if I really try. $12/$13 for a 5qt jug and a $5 rebate is not hard. Heck Napa and a few places give a easy-to-spot $1.99 quart sale. For a 3.8 quart sump, that is less than $8 for a oil change.....


Whatever rebates I've seen for conventionals (like QSAD or Defy), those rebates aren't near as potent as the synthetics. And since I have 3 yrs of synthetic PP/M1/Edge stock-piled at $2.00/qt, $1.90 conventional oil isn't gonna move me. PYB would be my preferred conventional oil...and I've never seen it discounted under $14/jug...and no rebates that I've seen. So the PP is cheaper. I would never consider buying NAPA conventional, even at $1.00/qt. Not a fan at all of sodium oils.

As a rule, I don't find the Pennz, QS, Castrol, VWB, and Mobil conventional oils discounted very much at the big box stores ($1 here or there)....and of that group, only the QSAD routinely comes with rebates. And at $3 rebates per 5 qt jug the QSAD is hardly worth getting excited about). The other major conventionals rarely offer rebates.

 

[TiredTrucker]

Dino in a turbo engine will do just fine as well. Somehow, my Cummins N-14 that went to 1.4 million miles on it when I sold it and still went to work for the next owner, without a major repair and still original turbo, didn't get the memo that dino would not suffice. All it got was a conventional from day one.

 

[PeterPolyol]

Maybe "conventional" as a terminology for engine oils should be retired, because as it stands now:
Synthetic = Best
Semi-synthetic = Better
Conventional = Good

This is marketing. It's an ultra-simple path of logic useful for upselling consumers. In a court of law, those terms mean absolute jack cheese in the context of engine oil.

OEMs require specifications, not 'synthetic'. Any possible use of these words by an OEM in vehicle literature would only be for the sake of an end-user's understanding in such a case, otherwise it's nothing but a dangling carrot. A consumer would not know the difference between a GrII+ and a GrIII base oil, and if they did, they likely wouldn't know it can be as small as a 1 or more point difference in a single base oil component's VI and even if they did, they would be citing actual VI values and base oil composition of the blend, not 'conventional' and 'synthetic'.