Controversial oil question

[oilresearchaccount]

Ive been doing research on 2 cycle oils and would like an expert opinion. This is a very controversial topic but I have yet to see any scientific explanation on it.

Looking at the additive package of a 2 cycle engine oil, it seems all it has is some calcium, and the rest of the additive package is slim to none.

Average 2 cycle engine oil additive package (Cheap Super Tech and expensive Amsoil):

Aside from issues such as falling out of suspension with oil, smoke and carbon blocking up exhausts, would a 4 cycle engine oil lubricate better than a 2 cycle oil in a 2 cycle engine?

How much of a difference would the additive package of the 4 cycle engine oil make in a 2 cycle engine? Would the zinc protect from wear better at the expense of running dirty?

How would multi weight oils such as 15W-40 react to being mixed with gasoline?

Assuming both the 2 cycle and 4 cycle oils have a high quality synthetic base oil, and the engine is jetted correctly to avoid excess carbon and exhaust spooge, would 4 cycle oil actually protect the engine better?

It seems like 2 cycle oils are made simply to burn clean and nothing more. I have always used synthetic 2 cycle oil in my engines but have been curious about this.

 

[Creekside]

I can’t answer your question but I am fascinated by the results you posted. I would have never guessed that 2 stroke oil was so basic. I wonder if the tin is an anti wear additive or what it’s for?

 

[CharBaby]

Is the SuperTech the synthetic(silver bottle) or the conventional(blue bottle)?

 

[oilresearchaccount]

The supertech is the blue bottle. I was surprised too, from what ive researched 2 stroke oil is mostly dependant on the quality of the base oil's film strength and thats about it. It has some detergent to keep carbon clean, a blue or red dye and sometimes an additive to help it stay mixed with gas.

I honestly wouldnt be surprised if 4 stroke oil would lubricate as good, probably even better than 2 stroke oils. The lubricity requirements for 2 stroke oils are not nearly as good as the 4 stroke oils from what it seems, and 2 stroke oils are made to do a couple things:

- Stay mixed with gasoline
- Burn clean

Aside from carbon buildup 4 stroke oil could lubricate better. 4 stroke oil has a higher flash point as well, which is similar to the flash points of 2 cycle oils made for engines that are run hard such as dirt bikes and chainsaws which rev high for long periods of time, so that they get lubrication even in extreme heat.

Cheaper 2 cycle oil seems to have a lower flash point to prevent gumming and carbon in lower rpm less stressed 2 stroke engines.

I would really like to get a clear answer on this, as no one I have talked to has any explanation or experience with this. Every oil company I asked refused to answer my question.

Assuming jetting and mix ratio is correct, could 4 cycle oil perform better than 2 cycle? (comparing cheap 2 cycle vs cheap 4 cycle oil, and high end 2 cycle vs high end 4 cycle oil)

Also, as an experiment I have mixed 4 cycle oil with gasoline in a jar. After a month there seems to be no separation.

 

[ctechbob]

@MolaKule would be the person to answer this question, I'm sure there are good reasons, otherwise, why bother to produce different oils?

 

[oilresearchaccount]

Emissions, plug fouling on lower temperature engines that dont run hot enough to burn off 4 cycle oil (As we can see also happens with high end 2 cycle oils when used in lower temperature engines like castor mixed 2 cycle oils), and the fact that people are willing to buy expensive 2 cycle oils.

2 cycle oils would also be a bit more forgiving if people mix in too much oil (Lots of consumers think more oil = better)

Aside from this, Im not sure why 4 cycle oil wouldnt work.

 

[demarpaint]

I'm thinking plug fouling would be a big issue, and TC oil is designed to burn more efficiently when mixed with gas. Engine oil takes a lot more heat to burn off, even when mixed with gas.

 

[oilresearchaccount]

Yeah, but even castor type 2 cycle oils dont burn well and cause the engine to run a bit leaner unless its upjetted, and fouls plugs as well. Two cycle oils run cleaner but is that the only advantage they have? If the engine is run hard and jetted correctly the issue wouldn't be as bad as it would seem.

From what I found 4 cycle and 2 cycle oils can have either very big differences in flash point, or none at all. Some 2 cycle oils rated for heavier use like motocross have similar flash points.

Heres a list of the flash points of 2 cycle oils:

Amsoil Interceptor - 183 F
Amsoil Dominator- 194 F
Amsoil Saber Pro - 237 F
Maxima Formula K2 - 240 F
Maxima Super M - 280 F
Maxima Super M Injector - 220 F
Maxima Castor 927 - 420 F
Maxima Bio 2T - 180 F
Motul 710 - 190 F
Motul 800 - 485 F
Motul Bio 2T - 255 F
Motorex Cross Power 2T - 230 F
Lucas Semi Synthetic - 182 F
Bel Ray H1R - 435 F
Bel Ray MC1 - 208 F
Bel Ray Si7 - 194 F
Castrol Power RS- 163 F
Castrol 2T - 194 F
Red Line Two-Stroke Racing Oil - 221 °F

4 stroke flash points seem to be around 392-518 F flash point.

Its true that even Motul 2 cycle oil and Maxima Castor 927 with high flash points can foul up plugs as well, but that mostly happens when the engine is too rich or more commonly just not run hard enough.

 

[4WD]

I'm thinking plug fouling would be a big issue, and TC oil is designed to burn more efficiently when mixed with gas. Engine oil takes a lot more heat to burn off, even when mixed with gas.

Yeah … unlike standard motor oils … it has to be very low ash since it’s basically part of the combustion mix … hence pretty much all oil …

 

[Kamele0N]

Molakule would be the person to answer this question, I'm sure there are good reasons, otherwise, why bother to produce different oils?

You have to add @ in front of user "nickname"....

@MolaKule....

 

[Kamele0N]

Regarding Calcium levels above...

Is Supertech API TD/Jaso FD and Amsoil API TC/Jaso FC speced?

JASO Oil Specifications - oilspecifications.org

www.oilspecifications.org

JASO FD......same as FC with far higher detergency requirement

 

[doitmyself]

The question that needs to be asked is what happens when you burn 4 cycle oil as part of the combustion process, which it is not designed for. The additive properties in 4 cycle oil as a lubricant might not be the same when used in a combustion application. I.E., zinc may not provide wear protection during a combustion process. In addition to protecting the engine, burning 4 cycle oil would probably never be environmentally acceptable. I'm going to guess that engine deposits would be problematic burning 4 cycle oil.

Maybe you should pose your question to 2 cycle engine manufacturers instead of oil manufacturers.

 

[SuperSalad]

This is not a controversial topic.

4-stroke oil performs terribly in a 2-stroke engine compared to 2-stroke oil.

The reason you don't see much in terms of additives in the elemental analysis is because modern 2-stroke oils mostly organic additives for performance so as to avoid producing ash and deposits.

The base oils of 4-cycle and 2-cycle oils should vary greatly. There are some common base oils used in the two, but 2-cycle oil base oil mixes use some specialized base oils you just wouldn't use in 4-cycle engine oils. The types used in 2-cycle oils are designed to burn clean and prevent deposits.

2 stroke oils are made to do a couple things:

- Stay mixed with gasoline
- Burn clean

If that were all that was needed, 2-cycle oil would be made from pure gasoline or ethanol.

There is a lot more that goes into a 2-cycle oil's design than those two parameters.

Flash point is basically a measure of vaporization rate, not a measure of how well something burns. It can be used to approximate some characteristics but nothing definitive regarding performance can be determined by an oil's flash point.

 

[Donald]

Premix and not worry.

 

[oilresearchaccount]

The question that needs to be asked is what happens when you burn 4 cycle oil as part of the combustion process, which it is not designed for.

This exactly. I have heard about 2 cycle oils using non metallic additives but cant find much information about it.

 

[SuperSalad]

This exactly. I have heard about 2 cycle oils using non metallic additives but cant find much information about it.

What information about it are you trying to find?

 

[oilresearchaccount]

Mostly the effects of using 4 cycle oil in a 2 cycle engine over time, what negative effects would it have other than carbon/plug fouling? Would it actually fail to lubricate the engine correctly? Would the additive package of the 4 cycle oil perform well in a 2 cycle engine? What are the in depth differences of 2 cycle oil and 4 cycle oil?

 

[SuperSalad]

I'm not aware of any credible references for the effects use 4-cycle oil in a 2-cycle engine over time. It doesn't seem to me like it would provide any valuable information. It is known what happens when 4-stroke oil burns; deposits, sludge, ash.

Yes it would fail to lubricate the engine correctly. A big part of the failure would be due to those deposits and the additives being converted to ash during combustion.

The additive package of a 4-cycle oil would not perform well in 2-cycle engine. There are some additives that might be common between them in some formulations, but for the most part, they use entirely different additives. The types chosen for 2-cycle oils are specifically chosen for their good performance in 2-cycle engines.

The in-depth differences are all about the applications they are designed for:

- Operating temperatures
- delivery methods
- operating lifespan
- use by-products
- etc.

They are formulated differently for the different applications they are meant for. They use different base oil combinations. They use different additive systems. They have different physical characteristics. They have different performance criteria.

 

[Kamele0N]

This is not a controversial topic.

4-stroke oil performs terribly in a 2-stroke engine compared to 2-stroke oil.

This! You will get premature wear of your 2T engine....restricted muffler....gunk/sludge all over internal parts...and fouled sparkplugs...

Like if you would be using 100% old school (non-degummed) castor oil...

Can tell you that from "2nd hand"...in 70s when there were oil/fuel shortages in YU my father used to mix PCMO in fuel for his outboard 2T motor...

 

[Kamele0N]

Finally found it! To the OP & all interested...

The Late Great Oil Debate