Consumer Reports Highly Recommended Picks

[brianl703]

I wasn't aware that the physical appearance of a vehicle had anything to do with it's reliability? "Oooh, the dash has hard plastic. OOooh, the interior looks like an 80s Pontiac. Oooh, it doesn't have an available navigation system. Oooh, it doesn't have heated seats." Oooh, who cares? (RE: navigation system, I can read a map).

Besides, you yourself said, "The twins may be just as good on the "GM" side"..not sure now? (Or maybe those aren't considered US-made vehicles..though I thought they came out of a factory in California which is part-owned by GM?)

Did your doctor prescribe anything for the short-term memory problem?

[ March 05, 2006, 12:04 AM: Message edited by: brianl703 ]

 

[ScottB]

Yeah Brian, everyone thinks US cars suck 'cause of the internet.

You probably work for a US automaker - that would explain it 'cause those folks have their heads in the sand too.

Scott

 

[ScottB]

Brian, where do you pick up these things you attribute to me?
I said the 'twins' remark - but read it again - "may be" is key, and only for those that have real roots in the Japanese plants.
And why do you think people are so dumb as to think US cars su¢k?

MY short-term memory issues notwithstanding, you're fighting a losing battle my friend. The cars aren't up to snuff - period.

When they are, people will buy. Simple as that.

Scott

 

[brianl703]

*You* believe people think US cars suck.

Other sources, such as JD Power, say otherwise.

(Or, like I said before, maybe GM is paying JD Power off. That's sarcasm, by the way, if you should actually think that's the case..).

 

[rjundi]

The whole reliability discussion is coming up, however Consumer Reports did not recommend their list based on reliability soley.

It is only one of the criteria pieces:

Of the more than 200 vehicles that Consumer Reports has recently tested, our Top Picks are worth special consideration. All are recommended models and all-around high performers that:

• Scored at or near the top among competing vehicles in our testing.

• We predict will have average or better reliability, based on our latest Annual Car Reliability Survey.

• Performed adequately in overall crash protection if tested by the government or insurance industry.

A large portion of domestics make at least average reliabilty.

 

[brianl703]

By the way, here's some real-world data from someone who actually deals with the vehicles in question (they are owned by close family members):

2005 Ford Escape. 2004 Chevrolet Malibu Classic. Both soon (within 2 months) to be 2 years old, with greater-than-average mileage on them (higher than 24,000 miles). (The Malibu is late-2004 production. The Escape is early 2005 production, and they were produced within 1 month of each other, in April and May of 2004 respectively).

Both have been back for exactly one problem since new. Escape had a bad steering wheel cruise-control switch (so it would not turn on the cruise) and Malibu had a noisy strut mount.

One problem in two years can be extrapolated out to 1.5 problems in three years. JD Power rates vehicles on their three-year study by the number of problems per 100 vehicles, so if our sample size included only these two vehicles and no others (or, putting it another way, assuming that the 99 other vehicles have similar service history), the result for both vehicles would be:

150 problems per 100 vehicles.

For 2002 (the last year for which figures are available; 2003 is due out in about July 2006), the industry average is

237 problems per 100 vehicles

(Ford and Chevrolet are above the industry average, at 231 and 232 respectively).

The full report is available here:

http://www.jdpower.com/news/releases/vds2005089.asp

It will be interesting to see JD Power's Vehicle Dependability Study due out in 2007/2008 to see how Ford and GM did.

 

[Kestas]

These problems aren't rated by severity. Like Lee Iaccoca once said of these reports, "They don't mention whether the problem is a crooked ashtray or a broken crankshaft."

 

[John K]

In an article in USAToday a Ford spokesperson agreed with the quality data, and said they were behind Asian brands. They also said the auto industry quality may have peaked and it might not be cost effective to try to improve any further. As far as the survey bias on brands, CU requests data on the cost of repairs, not what the owners think. Pure number crunching. The president of CU addresses the opinon of Japanese bias, says they get tons of letters and e-mails. "At our auto-test track, it's the results that count, such as braking distance, fuel economy, accident-avoidance capapbilty, comfort, and ergonomics. Statistics from more than 50- test and evaluations feed into a vehicles overall score." "Not only would it be unfair of us to consider where a vehicle is built in our Ratings, but it's also not always clear-cut. Is a Mexican-built Ford Fusion, which is based on a Japanese Mazda6, more American than a Toyota Sienna conceived in California, engineered in Michigan, and built in Indiana?" Elsewhere they state that they use a 327 acre auto-test center and evaluate the cars for months and driven for 6,000 miles or more. Some of their testing has been adopted by the auto industry.
I don't think you can compare any other mags testing to CR for comprehensiveness, most car mags give a short test, and certainly don't compare as many cars in so many categories.

Anyone remember when CU tested the first Japanese cars? They blasted them, usually for inadequate brakes, and other saftety issues. The Japanese listened and worked on correcting them, not arguing and trying to counter the results (for the most part)>

 

[John K]

ScottB - Just curious about the cars you considered purchasing...what was your criteria? Or what did you want in a vehicle. I only ask because they seem like such different cars. Which Scion? Care to share your opinions about each, assuming you drove them? They also represent a pretty big spread in price. No motive other than curiousity.

 

[ScottB]

Brian: You have to be kidding me. 2/3 of the US auto makers are close to bankruptcy - is that because ScottB didn't buy a Mustang? I think not, Brian.

John K: As for my final list:

Mustang GT
Crossfire
Solstice
PT Cruiser
H3 Hummer (hard for me to believe too)
RX-8
RAV4
tC
G35
350z

Quite a list, eh? I'm 44 and make a good salary. I have a literal boatload of equity in my home. I have a big savings account. I HAVEN'T had a car payment in 14 years - intentionally. I also have two girls in college.
I started out emotionally looking for a really crazy car - even briefly looked at slightly used Vipers.
What I ended up doing after 6+months of research was going with the other side of my brain. I have plenty of time to go crazy with the car of my dreams, and until my life has more of the important things behind me, I went with common sense.

My mechanic is a great guy. A family-owned business that's been here a long time. I trust him. He was very excited when I went for the tC SCION. He's a big Honda/Toyota backer, and yes, that seems odd given he makes money off of problems.

My daughter's 2001 Mustang was bought slightly used two years ago. Frankly, it's a ***. I have so many personal (family, friends, etc) stories of Big-Three nightmares that I didn't want to see AAA for a long time.

If my tC ends up being a *** too - I'll be the first one to come here, suck eggs, and admit it. I have only loyalty to the companies that give me good products and service for my money, although Brian obviously thinks I have some agenda to bash American-made cars.

Scott

 

[brianl703]

quote:

---

CU requests data on the cost of repairs

---

There are two potential problems with that.

1)Repair costs for the same exact repair can vary widely from from region to region, even from shop to shop. Ideally they would simply ask what went wrong and then use Mitchell's or another labor estimating guide to determine the labor cost. Parts costs would be a little tricky however..I'm not quite sure how most shops determine what to charge for parts.

2)What consitutes a repair? What constitutes maintenance? Do they differentiate between the two? If someone brings a car in to the dealership and it receives the dealership's interpretation of what the 30K service is for $600, is that maintenance or a repair? Should the reliability of a car be negatively impacted because a dealership did $400 worth of useless inspections and $200 worth of actual work, only $50 of which is actually required by the factory manual? If so, why? Are they rating the car or the dealership?

 

[brianl703]

quote:

---

"They don't mention whether the problem is a crooked ashtray or a broken crankshaft."

---

I would venture to guess that a vehicle that had a severe problem like a broken crankshaft probably has a lot of minor ones resulting from the same poor engineering/QC/costcutting.

If they didn't get something as important as a crankshaft right, they probably didn't get the ashtray (or several other things) right either, which will likely show up in the survey.

Good engineering/QC results in fewer problems per 100 vehicles. Poor engineering/QC results in more problems per 100 vehicles.

 

[ScottB]

Brian, you neglected to reply to my response to your question.
If it's just idiots like me - and granted, I may be an idiot, and surely the world has many - why are 2/3 of US automakers nearing BK?

I mean seriously, if US cars didn't su¢k, don't you think people would buy them?

My whole family are people that helped build this country. They came from Germany in the early 1800's and worked hard, crappy jobs. My dad started life as a miner in Montana, and my uncle was a Highway Patrolman all his life in Montana.
Basically the same background for my Mom's side.
As American as it gets.
I'd love to own an American-made car from an American car company.

When they get back in order, I will reconsider. Until then, the evidence backs my decision to stick with Japanese.
BTW - being German, I'd love to buy a German-made car too, but nothing remotely reasonably priced looks any better. Germany has it's share of crappy cars too.

Scott

 

[brianl703]

Why are they facing bankruptcy? I've heard healthcare costs cited as one reason, if not the main reason. I believe it, too.

 

[ScottB]

True. But if they sold more cars, that might not matter as much.
Go by a big-three lot and see all the sale signs and huge inventory.
Japanese lots not so much, and nowhere near the deals on interest and corny "employee pricing" gimmicks.
Like I said - top-down overhaul.
They are a mess right now.

 

[brianl703]

If I said what I thought about the healthcare situation, I'd get this thread locked, so I won't.

 

[ScottB]

Agreed.

 

[keith]

Personal surveys of a few dozen cars are useless in predicting the reliability of a fleet of 500,000 cars. The large surveys are valuable if you believe they are free of bias. My wifes Caravan minivan is still running at 140K miles, original transmission. Does that make it a reliable transmission? [NO! I know the local Dodge dealer and he gets lots of transmission problems in the repair shop]

The one thing that shines through is that the big 2 (3, if you include German Chrysler) have lost a lot of consumer goodwill. They really need to offer much longer standard warranties. After all, they tell us their reliability is good so stand behind those words and prove it.

 

[brianl703]

I thought the "official line" on those transmissions is that most failures are due to usage of DexronIII/Mercon fluid. At least I recall something about that in the trans. fluid forum.

(Kinda makes me wonder..will putting DexronIII into a transmission that calls for T-IV or 3309 fluid make it self-destruct like a Chrysler transmission?)