Considering Making A Change, Honda has disappointed me

[SammyChevelleTypeS3]

I asked earlier if your other CR-V is experiencing fuel/oil dilution?
Have you considered taking you vehicle to the dealer and see if there is a reflash/update of your computer to help with this issue?

I took wife's 2018 Accord for some the free oil changes and asked 2-3 times about the (so called computer re-program) and they acted stupid like they had not a clue what all this talk about oil dilution is. I should probably take it to another dealer and ask. (I do have much documentation and receipts for all the oil and filters so far). Also notes about why so frequent oil changes. I hope to combine that with oil sample results if we ever need them. Oh, its the absolute best all around Accord we have owned .... This one is the 4th in a row. We have 2 of them now. 2018 + 2009. One turbo. The 2018 the wife has is a really nice car. Plenty enough power (we not racing anyone) yet if you not paying attention you are going 70mph before you notice. Interior is leather, only other option she could get would have been larger engine which we kind of finished with. All about comfort and mpg now for us. My only problem is gas in the oil which I am finally due to send a sample in this week. This will be my first uoa in years and first on this vehicle. I have used Amsoil lab before. Right now I have Amsoil test kits and some Blackstone. I am certainly interested in my results. I fooled myself a while back thinking it was cured but I realize now what is happening. It is exactly as someone expressed.... It all depends on how u drive and the way you use the car + your climate. Supposedly people in cold areas see more dilution but according to folks comments _ not 100% true as people like me in hot climate are having the fuel in oil. She loves her car and I do like driving it myself. I calmed down a lot about it since I realized I have not heard of many or any failures of these engines YET. Does not hurt to try to look out for yourself though. Manufacturers not dealers will. We all know what they care about and its not even their employees.

 

[CharBaby]

Mine is going into the dealership on Monday for an oil change, also to check the injector programming, software/firmware and EGR system. My wife's 2020 CRV has only 4200 miles and has had 2 oil changes as she uses it as a grocery getter. A UOA is in the works for hers, I'm surmising that hers may have some dilution, however I am also suspicious that mine may have something wrong that's causing the problem as my previous Civics had essentially the same engine and were driven in a similar manner had no dilution issues. Mine has 20k miles and is still under warranty as well as Hondacare.

Right! I think that your CR-V may have something slightly amiss.🤏 You're doing the right thing by taking the CR-V into the dealer and at least getting some documentation of the issue.

Your Civic and CR-V have the same 1.5T engine with different programming & horsepower/torque ratings. The software in your CR-V is closer to the Accord's 1.5T. However, the CR-V seems to be(statistically) showing more fuel dilution issues than the Civic or Accord (if any).

And your wife's CR-V may [MAY] show different results, we don't know yet, even though they're the same vehicle/year/drivetrain.
Probably they were built on different days using some different vendors for certain parts? Car companies(all companies) use different vendors for same parts all the time, just in case one vendor has in house problems, the car company can fall back to the other.
OR, the parts coming from the same vendor may have been slightly out of spec? 🤏
No car company makes ever single part themselves, they use specialty companies for parts that they/themselves don't produce. Like steering wheels, headlight housings etc. The car company designs them, other companies produce them under their(Honda) specification.

Quick story:

In 1988, my buddy and I both bought '88 Honda Accord LX sedans auto tranny w/carburetors(not EFI). We bought from different local dealers at different times(literally a few days apart).
*My car was built in Ontario, Canada and his was built in Ohio, USA
*His ignition system was a Hitachi and mine was a TEC
*His car came with Bridgestone tires and mine came with Michelin
*My car had a terrible in gear at idle vibration(that was actually prevalent in many) that the dealer could never rectify even after motor mount change and his ran smooth as silk
*I had issues filling my gas tank with the gas handle squeezed all the way(clicked off all the time) and my buddy had no problem.
*His car always seemed to ride a bit better than mine(we both agreed)
**Both of our wives hated the car!

EDIT: Here's a video talking about the fuel dilution on CR-Vs. It starts around 7:40-7:50 in the videol

 

[miden851]

trade it for LX model perhaps, '17-'19 production; or that '22 Corolla Cross

this is CRV with highest miles on the odometer in my area with the same engine; I could find more with over 100K miles on it

Autotrader - page unavailable

 

[Ws6]

After several disappointing UOA'S with the last one showing oil dilution after 4000 miles exceeding 3.5 % in my 2020 CRV (MM indicates 50% oil life, yeah, right!) and constantly rising oil level on the dipstick. I'm considering leaving 35+ years of Honda ownership to get away from the small-displacement DI Turbocharged engines that seem to be the problem, apparently it's just the nature of the beast. One vehicle I'm considering is the Toyota C-HR with it's 2L port injected engine. Other than the quirky styling it seems to be a fairly solid design. Any C-HR owners out there? I'd like to know how actual owners have done with this car, engine and transmission. I've driven the Honda HR-V and didn't much care for it or it's solid rear axle, other than a slightly larger engine, it's basically a Fit.

Get a CX5. Mazda knows how to engineer a small DI engine, NA and Turbo, and puts a great, if aging, gearbox along side it.

 

[Coastie05]

None as of yet, was planning to keep this CRV for 5 years or more, just concerned about the long-term effects of oil thinning. Situation: I'm 74, live in a townhouse and am unable physically to do my own oil changes. I have the Hondacare 120/7yrs so probably should stay with 0W-20 or 5W-20 for warranty requirements, I'd really like to go to 5W-30 if I could get away with it. I guess my best plan, short-term, is to go to 3k change intervals. Still might drive a C-HR just to convince myself. My 2019 Civic Touring Coupe was able to have excellent UOA's with 5K intervals on Mobil1 0W-20 AFE, pretty much the same engine but definitely less load, seems like the CRV is much harder on oil. The CRV is going in for an oil change on Monday, they're going to check programming, injector performance and the PCV system, perhaps something is awry. My dealer has a friendly service manager and I've got a young, eager Honda Certified Master Mechanic who is going to give it a good going over.

I didn't read through all the comments, so I apologize if you already answered this, but since you have Honda Care why would you get rid of the vehicle? Why not just follow the MM and keep the vehicle? The warranty will cover any failure and when the warranty is out then get rid of the car...just my thought.

 

[ARCOgraphite]

After several disappointing UOA'S with the last one showing oil dilution after 4000 miles exceeding 3.5 % in my 2020 CRV (MM indicates 50% oil life, yeah, right!) and constantly rising oil level on the dipstick. I'm considering leaving 35+ years of Honda ownership to get away from the small-displacement DI Turbocharged engines that seem to be the problem, apparently it's just the nature of the beast. One vehicle I'm considering is the Toyota C-HR with it's 2L port injected engine. Other than the quirky styling it seems to be a fairly solid design. Any C-HR owners out there? I'd like to know how actual owners have done with this car, engine and transmission. I've driven the Honda HR-V and didn't much care for it or it's solid rear axle, other than a slightly larger engine, it's basically a Fit.

CH-R is not all wheel drive. Just a jazzed up econobox. Not in even close to the same league as the Honda .
In fact I don't understand what this car is for.

Just run a BMW 0W30 or equivalent VAG oil in there. You'll should be fine.

What is 3.5 % 4 ounces? Consider it like automatic Seafoam injection

 

[ARCOgraphite]

carbed autos ran rich or out of tune for half a century and we still got 200-300K out of some of them.

But those had low specific output. Most all of them needed at the very least a timing chain set water pump and a new distributor cam at 110K.
Many needed a valve job too and some likely a cam and lifter set.

How do I know? I was the guy repairing these cars in the mid to late 70's in the Lowell, Mass Area. NIASE Master.

 

[Speedy3861]

CH-R is not all wheel drive. Just a jazzed up econobox. Not in even close to the same league as the Honda .
In fact I don't understand what this car is for.

Just run a BMW 0W30 or equivalent VAG oil in there. You'll should be fine.

What is 3.5 % 4 ounces? Consider it like automatic Seafoam injection

As I'm under warranty, and servicing at a dealer, pretty much have to stay with an approved API oil, Honda specifies a 0W-20, I could use an API SP 5W-20, GF-6A probably Mobil1 EP, which I will try Monday. Depending on what the tech discovers relative to the issue, I may just drop change intervals to 3000-4000 mi range and live with it.

As far as the Toyota C-HR, it's not all that different from the Civics that I'm used to, I'm still finding the CRV seems quite large to me.

 

[ARCOgraphite]

As I'm under warranty, and servicing at a dealer, pretty much have to stay with an approved API oil, Honda specifies a 0W-20, I could use an API SP 5W-20, GF-6A probably Mobil1 EP, which I will try Monday. Depending on what the tech discovers relative to the issue, I may just drop change intervals to 3000-4000 mi range and live with it.

As far as the Toyota C-HR, it's not all that different from the Civics that I'm used to, I'm still finding the CRV seems quite large to me.

I had a Nissan Rogue Sport which was called the Select back then. Those are a nice size and a nice driver.
Same with the Mitsubishi Outlander sport - which I have not driven.
I find anything with out a stick shift to be petty miserable.
Car in general are getting pretty miserable - read that NOT entertaining - for someone who likes to drive.

Mother Lady station wagons - big boxes of air - are pretty much NO fun at all .

- But good luck finding anything Good these days. The Mazda CX30 is worth a look. Wife thought it was too cramped.

- Rogue Sport

- Mazda CX-30

 

[doitmyself]

Hey Speedy, I suggest you try the Toyota C-HR yourself. Everyone has different perspective on cars. My adult son bought one last spring and is content with it. I have traveled in it. Drive comfort (rough roads) is good for this size. I did not notice noise to be a problem. Engine power is good enough. It seems to be well built with good fit and finish.

I read the reviews pre-purchase and was pleasantly surprised to find the "rag" impressions a non-problem. I am not a driving enthusiast. Fit, finish, reliability, and general good operation is all that matters to me. For perspective, my son had an awesome 2013 Kia Soul with 1.6L engine previously that gave him over 200K miles of reliability and good performance. Beware internet opinions and decide for your own wants, needs, and preferences.

 

[FZ1]

Look, you bought it, because you liked to drive it better than any other vehicle you test drove....right? So keep it and change the oil more frequently. You will incur more aggravation and money loss changing cars than just keeping it and changing the oil more frequently. Your instinct, to change the oil more frequently, was correct. The motor is not going to wear out. .02.

 

[Speedy3861]

Look, you bought it, because you liked to drive it better than any other vehicle you test drove....right? So keep it and change the oil more frequently. You will incur more aggravation and money loss changing cars than just keeping it and changing the oil more frequently. Your instinct, to change the oil more frequently, was correct. The motor is not going to wear out. .02.

Actually, it was an impulse buy, I had a Civic Touring Coupe and my wife had a Fit EX-L. We had an issue of comfort in the rear seat transporting our two Papillions ( they're inseparable) to a veterinarian specialist about an hour away, Coupe was a non-starter and the rear if the Fit was very uncomfortable for my wife on rough roads due to its solid axle. She liked my CRV enough to get one too, so problem solved. I can live with my CRV, it's comfortable and quiet but I still miss my Civic, so considering the frustration (for me) with the inherent issues with the 1.5t, I'm kinda looking around a bit and the C-HR appealed to me enough to try a test drive. From the numbers I've seen lately, with my CRV paid for, transition into a C-HR should be relatively painless. My best friend is just starting as Asst. Service manager at a really decent local Toyota dealership. So, I'll take a look and see if it appeals to me.
Push comes to shove, I'll just go to more frequent OCI's and try not to obsess about it.

 

[FZ1]

Actually, it was an impulse buy, I had a Civic Touring Coupe and my wife had a Fit EX-L. We had an issue of comfort in the rear seat transporting our two Papillions ( they're inseparable) to a veterinarian specialist about an hour away, Coupe was a non-starter and the rear if the Fit was very uncomfortable for my wife on rough roads due to its solid axle. She liked my CRV enough to get one too, so problem solved. I can live with my CRV, it's comfortable and quiet but I still miss my Civic, so considering the frustration (for me) with the inherent issues with the 1.5t, I'm kinda looking around a bit and the C-HR appealed to me enough to try a test drive. From the numbers I've seen lately, with my CRV paid for, transition into a C-HR should be relatively painless. My best friend is just starting as Asst. Service manager at a really decent local Toyota dealership. So, I'll take a look and see if it appeals to me.
Push comes to shove, I'll just go to more frequent OCI's and try not to obsess about it.

I drive a '17 Camry so I can understand your preference for smaller vs. an suv. Best of luck whatever your choice.

 

[Shel_B]

That's a very good option.

Corolla Cross, they are close to a RAV4 in size.

 

[Speedy3861]

​

I drive a '17 Camry so I can understand your preference for smaller vs. an suv. Best of luck whatever your choice.

As usual, I research stuff to death...found some interesting information on the 3ZR-FAE 2L engine that Toyota uses in the C-HR, apparently it dates back to the Scion and has been somewhat updated with a newer fuel injection system but is known for oil burning, possibly related to the use of low-tension piston rings. Apparently there is no automotive nirvana.

​

 

[Accent Abuser]

That Honda engine wasn't designed right, T-GDI/GDI is not always a bad thing and I wouldn't necessarily limit myself to MPI engines only, all GDI engines suffer some fuel dilution when cold but for the most part as long as you're not doing nothing but short trips it should evaporate and be burned off via the PCV.

 

[ARCOgraphite]

​

As usual, I research stuff to death...found some interesting information on the 3ZR-FAE 2L engine that Toyota uses in the C-HR, apparently it dates back to the Scion and has been somewhat updated with a newer fuel injection system but is known for oil burning, possibly related to the use of low-tension piston rings. Apparently there is no automotive nirvana.

​

The CH-r has NEVER been a good value proposition. Don't you require AWD in Penn?
My aassement is it is an econobox masquerding as a CUV and it is excessively overpriced for what it brings to the table.
But aren't most cars now - except the base Mid-Full Sized Subaru Outback Station Wagon that my wife got new for $26K

If you wish to go Toyota, The Corolla 5 door Hatchback is not pretending to be anything and you can get it in a stick shift.
Might be rare as hen's teeth though.

 

[Cujet]

Thought this was interesting. About the 4 minute mark, he starts to remove the fuel pump, which is driven off of the end of the intake cam. It's no surprise the heavy loading of the high pressure fuel pump destroyed the cam journals and there is metallic debris about the area. Some VW and Audi engines also have fuel pump wear issues due to heavy loading and insufficient oil viscosity.

The guy disassembling the engine noted that he suspected the engine was run without oil for a brief period of time. I strongly disagree. This is the exact failure mode of an engine run with excessive fuel dilution, likely the oil was approaching 50% fuel. You'll note the rod bearings and main bearings show isolated spots of wear down to the copper, yet no evidence of being run without oil (scoring). The clue is that the highly loaded intake cam is what failed, due to the fuel diluted oil being unable to handle the load. The rest of the engine does not show evidence of oil starvation.

A touch off topic, but relevant to many here. People often tend to think of engine wear as piston rings and cylinder wear along with oil consumption. But today's engines have highly loaded parts that can provide a high wear metal count to UOA results. The above high pressure fuel pump and the associated load on the far end of the intake camshaft is a great example. Timing chains are another example. My point: "wear metals" can be produced by just one part, and the rest of the engine can be fine.

 

[Graham Piccinini]

CH-R is not all wheel drive. Just a jazzed up econobox. Not in even close to the same league as the Honda .
In fact I don't understand what this car is for.

C-HR (Coupe High Rider) is meant for small city traffic and it was originally meant as a hybrid. In fact - overseas it is sold as a hybrid. It was supposed to be what the AWD-e Prius is, but after evaluating the American market Toyota realized that they can make more profit with AWD-e Prius and AWD Rav4 Hybrid, rather than the quirky youth oriented C-HR.
Some WIKI info for those wondering:
"The Japanese market C-HR is powered by either 1.2-litre turbocharged petrol engine, or 1.8-litre Hybrid. The FWD models are available with both engines, while the only motor for the AWD models is 1.2-litre turbo."

 

[ARCOgraphite]

Thought this was interesting. About the 4 minute mark, he starts to remove the fuel pump, which is driven off of the end of the intake cam. It's no surprise the heavy loading of the high pressure fuel pump destroyed the cam journals and there is metallic debris about the area. Some VW and Audi engines also have fuel pump wear issues due to heavy loading and insufficient oil viscosity.

The guy disassembling the engine noted that he suspected the engine was run without oil for a brief period of time. I disagree. This is the exact failure mode of an engine run with excessive fuel dilution, likely the oil was approaching 50% fuel. You'll note the rod bearings and main bearings show isolated spots of wear down to the copper, yet no evidence of being run without oil (scoring).

Thank for the Video. Love this stuff. This guy edited it well and seems no nonsense and he made no assumptions other than being run low on oil. Which I somewhat understand as the bottom end wasnt terrible and the oiling was nonexistent a the last few journals of the cam - also proximal to the point of high loading at teh injector pump. It would be good to find out from the dealer he got the engine from what condition the oil was in when the car was presented to them - but I bet they don't say much about warranty replacements to the general public.
I appear to have a similar issue with my Ford, where it started running hot after a couple longer longer trips after the previous weekend, and when I stopped for Fuel, I found much of the oil was gone and the engine was giving off extreme heat underhood. even the prop rod was too hot to the touch. I check the oil level weekly and it was fine until the two 70 mile high speed highway round trips. I might assume it must have been using and diluting at the same time - so i witnessed no oil level change I am retired and the Ford CUV does not get the 45min/23 mile one-way commute 2x per day 6 days a week like my other cars have in my past when I was working. So this is the first time dealing with dilution.
it is a 12:1 compression and high specific output, direct injection 2.0L NA motor. I don't recall having fuel dilution issue with my VW 1.4 tsi which also saw mainly short tripping.
I was thinking about running a 10W30 in the Summer. Now this expose' almost seals the deal - as long as it doesn't affect the VVTi too much where I cant granny lug the thing around town which is where it wants to run in full automatic mode.
This cam wear on the Honda recalls VAG Pumpe-Düse. Was that determined to be a materials or oiling issue - or both?
- Ken