Comparing Dino to Synthetics
- Thread starter Smitty
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I believe these results are produced by Amsoils own lab (probably done properly I would agree ) however, it is Amsoil's lab. This does diff from an independent lab ( with a reputation at stake supposedly for not giving bias) even if it was paid by Amosil to do the tests.
Once again it is not an issue with the product so much as it is with Al's idea of marketing. Yes,other companies do it as well and they are equally bashed on this site.
Thanks Smitty, it must have taken a long time to post all of that information.
I see no reason to doubt the ASTM tests. As has already been stated Amsoil would be open to lawsuits if they falsified the results of the ASTM tests.
Quote from JohnBrowning:
[ January 05, 2004, 01:02 AM: Message edited by: Sin City ]
I see no reason to doubt the ASTM tests. As has already been stated Amsoil would be open to lawsuits if they falsified the results of the ASTM tests.
Quote from JohnBrowning:
JohnBrowning, what is the NOACK % for Castrol Syntec 5W-50? I sent Castrol an email requesting this information about a year ago but they said that information was proprietary.
[ January 05, 2004, 01:02 AM: Message edited by: Sin City ]
John Browning. I have a 0w30 grade in my car
which is in storage. In summer I will use a mix
of 10w30 & 5w50. In Canada, Castrol Syntec costs
less than Mobil 1. I just bought some at $5.99
per litre vs $7.50 avg. for Mobil 1. Amsoil is
too darn expensive at $9.10 a U.S. quart.
which is in storage. In summer I will use a mix
of 10w30 & 5w50. In Canada, Castrol Syntec costs
less than Mobil 1. I just bought some at $5.99
per litre vs $7.50 avg. for Mobil 1. Amsoil is
too darn expensive at $9.10 a U.S. quart.
quote:
Originally posted by Andrew:
Originally posted by Ray H:
[qb] - begs the question how many other comparative tests have been run over the years that Amsoil made sure never saw the light of day in print?) You should remember this next time you visit your doctor and he writes you a script
Absolutely. Most drugs are approved based upon the reuslts of multi center trials etc, what few people know is how many actual patients were involved, sometimes only a few thousand. If you read the inserts (which few people do)though you get the entire scoop. How many people get a presciption and ask the doc about all the possible side affects? Many docs don't know all the facets of the drugs they push (may not even run tests on the patient) and are similar in some ways to those that sell motor oil (never examine the engine)prescribe a specific oil and inform the consumer to go 25,000 miles between changes
You are completely missing the point of these tests ...
Synthetic lubes only have a 7% market share at the current time. My goal is to reach the 93% of folks who are still in the dark ages
, and using conventional lubes. That's where all the growth potential is for extended drain synlubes like Amsoil. If someone is using Mobil 1 or Redline and is satisfied with the results, it's a complete waste of my valuable time to try to convert them. I do think the oil analysis results on this and other boards speak for themselves, however, particularly with regards to extended drain capability....
Amsoil clearly outperforms Mobil 1, Castrol Syntec and Valvoline Synpower in standardized bench tests. These are quick and dirty way of comparing physical/chemical properties of various lube formulations. I'd say the results are most applicable if you are planning to run extended drains - these are the main customers I'm trying to reach. Any decent GP II petroleum oil will last for 3000-5000 miles these days, so it's completely pointless to change synthetic oil that often, unless you have a turbo or pull a fifth wheel all time.
With regards to the Amsoil marketing method, I'll put my knowledge of synthetic lubricants up against anybody who owns a auto repair shop, an auto parts store, or a race car of any type. As for the product knowledge of the guys at Walmart and/or Costco, where most folks buy Mobil 1 - surely you must be kidding?
Tooslick
[ February 15, 2004, 07:52 AM: Message edited by: rugerman1 ]
Synthetic lubes only have a 7% market share at the current time. My goal is to reach the 93% of folks who are still in the dark ages
Amsoil clearly outperforms Mobil 1, Castrol Syntec and Valvoline Synpower in standardized bench tests. These are quick and dirty way of comparing physical/chemical properties of various lube formulations. I'd say the results are most applicable if you are planning to run extended drains - these are the main customers I'm trying to reach. Any decent GP II petroleum oil will last for 3000-5000 miles these days, so it's completely pointless to change synthetic oil that often, unless you have a turbo or pull a fifth wheel all time.
With regards to the Amsoil marketing method, I'll put my knowledge of synthetic lubricants up against anybody who owns a auto repair shop, an auto parts store, or a race car of any type. As for the product knowledge of the guys at Walmart and/or Costco, where most folks buy Mobil 1 - surely you must be kidding?
Tooslick
[ February 15, 2004, 07:52 AM: Message edited by: rugerman1 ]
A really good Amsoil rep would not sell the oil to anyone under the premise to just put it in and go 25,000 miles. I don't think any one of the reps on this site do that. Unfortunately, I think most other Amosil reps do. They don't look at the engine to even see if it is moderately cared for, for basic signs of sludge etc. They simply say, hey, put it in and go 25,000 miles in a year. Should they discuss driving habits, usage, with the new customer, look at the engine etc. Well, many would say no (buyer beware, rep has nothing to lose either as if the engine fails it is simply not a sound operating engine to begin with) but they are marketing a different product then the AutoZone guy who pushes 3000 mile oil changes. Anything can make it 3000 miles. When you market a high quality product and your repeat customer is due to product and service I feel that all reps should look at the engine and discuss the driving conditions etc. Putting Amsoil in a dirty engine and saying to just go is not being fair to the customer nor the product.
Extended drains, Amsoil's forte, is not feasible in an older higher mileage dirty engine, at least not from the get go!. I do wish that somehow that could be placed in brochure and handed out to new customers using the product.
[ January 05, 2004, 10:46 AM: Message edited by: Spector ]
Extended drains, Amsoil's forte, is not feasible in an older higher mileage dirty engine, at least not from the get go!. I do wish that somehow that could be placed in brochure and handed out to new customers using the product.
[ January 05, 2004, 10:46 AM: Message edited by: Spector ]
Patman
Staff member
QS just recently started advertising their synthetic 5w30 and 10w30 as being A3, so it's only their latest formulation, and I'm sure this test must've been done with their older formulation.
I still have not seen the A3 rated Quaker State 5w30 or 10w30 in Canada.
Castrol GTX outperforms the Syntec in one category and does quite well in most of the others, except for test 1. In some of the tests the numbers are the same for a number of the oils but they must list them in some type of order--so we need to keep this in mind when scanning the order.
It seems to me that Mobil DC and Castrol GTX are both very good mineral oils, and not that far behind the OTC synthetics.
It seems to me that Mobil DC and Castrol GTX are both very good mineral oils, and not that far behind the OTC synthetics.
Patman
Staff member
The stuff I see around here all says SL formula on it, but doesn't say A3 rated, so it's probably a reformulation done midway through the SL cycle. Speaking of which, I guess we'll be seeing SM formula oils coming out sometime later this year?
TS,
I'm gonna pick on you a bit
You can run all kinds of bench testing, but what counts is real world use. It is obvious Amsoil makes a fine oil, but so does Mobil and Castrol (GC stuff) Even Schaeffers has an excellent oil and has outperformed the top syn many many times.
It is well known that the vast mojority of people here and out there will never run an oil past 5-6k miles, so Amsoil's long drain capabilities won't make them any money.
My point is, that while bench testing looks good on paper, it has almost no meaning in real life.
EDIT: Oh yeah....is Amsoils advertising misleading?.....Absolutely! Is it fair? ....Absolutely! Everybody else does it....why wouldn't they?
[ January 05, 2004, 11:46 PM: Message edited by: Last_Z ]
I'm gonna pick on you a bit
You can run all kinds of bench testing, but what counts is real world use. It is obvious Amsoil makes a fine oil, but so does Mobil and Castrol (GC stuff) Even Schaeffers has an excellent oil and has outperformed the top syn many many times.
It is well known that the vast mojority of people here and out there will never run an oil past 5-6k miles, so Amsoil's long drain capabilities won't make them any money.
My point is, that while bench testing looks good on paper, it has almost no meaning in real life.
EDIT: Oh yeah....is Amsoils advertising misleading?.....Absolutely! Is it fair? ....Absolutely! Everybody else does it....why wouldn't they?
[ January 05, 2004, 11:46 PM: Message edited by: Last_Z ]
I don't think that the current Quaker State Synthetic 5W-30 and 10W-30 is rated ACEA A3. If you look at their tech data sheet it states: "European ACEA A3-98/B3-98 engine test protection standards (5W-30 & 10W-30)." It does not state that it actually meets the ACEA standards for the out-dated A3-98/B3-98 standards from 1998. Perhaps Gman-II or another attorney will comment on the wording of their statement.
Here is a link to the QS tech data sheet for their synthetic oils. web page
[ January 06, 2004, 01:05 AM: Message edited by: Sin City ]
Quote from JohnBrowning:
JohnBrowning, do you know what the NOACK % is for Castrol Syntec 5W-50? I asked Castrol for this information about a year ago but they said that the information was proprietary.
As others have said, there is no reason to believe that Amsoil has rigged these tests, but why weren't some of the other high quality synthetics included? I'd be willing to bet that Amsoil actually does include other synthetics in these tests, but only publishes the results of the oils that do worse than Amsoil. No one can deny that Amsoil is a very good product, but I've always felt their marketing practices were on the sleazy side. I know I'll take heat for that, but that's honestly what I think, and I really do try to keep an open mind about this.
As Mark Twain once said, "There are lies, **** lies, and statistics." Test results, like statistics, can be manipulated to point to most any conclusion by simply omitting the data that doesn't fit.
Can I prove that Amsoil does this? No.
Do I think that Amsoil does this? Absolutely.
As Mark Twain once said, "There are lies, **** lies, and statistics." Test results, like statistics, can be manipulated to point to most any conclusion by simply omitting the data that doesn't fit.
Can I prove that Amsoil does this? No.
Do I think that Amsoil does this? Absolutely.
Very few people outside of serious oil junkies have ever heard of Redline, RP, Synergyn, Torco, etc. It makes NO business sense to advertise for your competitors ....This is also why Mobil never includes Amsoil in their advertising. They'd like you to think Mobil 1 is the best stuff on the planet
Actually,if you exclude RP, Amsoil sells more synthetic lubes than all these other small companies combined ....Royal Purple actually sells a lot of synthetic lubes in bulk quantities for industrial applications. I would not be at all surprised if their annual sales were higher than Redline.
Based on the oil analysis results I've seen, Redline in particular would do very well in all these high temp tests, and would outperform Mobil 1 in all of them except those that evaluate cold temp flow. I believe the TFOUT performance of Redline in particular would be outstanding; given how little it thickens.
It should be noted that Redline IS more expensive than the Amsoil 5w-30 and 10w-30, so it should hold up even better in a high performance application ....I do think the Amsoil 5w-30/10w-30 are more suitable for drains > 10,000 miles, but they are both excellent products.
Actually,if you exclude RP, Amsoil sells more synthetic lubes than all these other small companies combined ....Royal Purple actually sells a lot of synthetic lubes in bulk quantities for industrial applications. I would not be at all surprised if their annual sales were higher than Redline.
Based on the oil analysis results I've seen, Redline in particular would do very well in all these high temp tests, and would outperform Mobil 1 in all of them except those that evaluate cold temp flow. I believe the TFOUT performance of Redline in particular would be outstanding; given how little it thickens.
It should be noted that Redline IS more expensive than the Amsoil 5w-30 and 10w-30, so it should hold up even better in a high performance application ....I do think the Amsoil 5w-30/10w-30 are more suitable for drains > 10,000 miles, but they are both excellent products.
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