College costs

A great variety of takes here, some badly mistaken (e.g., the "awash in money" take), but most having some degree of validity.

From my perspective as an externally-funded researcher for 20 years and long-time chair of a math department (that dealt with ~7,000 students per academic year) at a middle-sized state university, the main problems with university costs have three distinct (but related) roots:

1) Universities are uniquely susceptible to the "Baumol effect" where the costs go up specifically because productivity does not increase.

I say "uniquely" because universities badly aggravate the Baumol effect by:

i.) administration mindlessly pushing smaller class sizes in the hope of better student outcomes​
ii.) administration and faculty finding ways to gin up reasons to not implement clear productivity enhancers like AI and online education (both done right).​

2) A constant "growth mindset" that induces strong groupthink in university administration.

Many (most?) administrators are looking to climb the ladder to the $200-500K levels of top senior administration where their decision-making power is nearly unchallenged. And you don't climb to the top of that ladder by downsizing, cutting, or rocking the boat.

When you're looking to leave your current position and move to the next rung up the administration ladder, you will go to the interview touting all the great things you created, grew, or expanded (complete with ginned up accounts of all the positive outcomes from that growth). The reason you will do that? Because that's exactly what the recruiting committee you will interview with will be looking for.

This is mostly because at least half of those committee members are looking to make their own move to the next rung of the ladder and will need to show all the things they created, grew, or expanded. That means getting more people on the team that can create growth (whether it is reasonable/needed or not). So, it's total groupthink with "existing growth mindset" begetting "more growth mindset."

Quickest way to take yourself out of the administration ladder-climbing game? Question growth and push for true outcome-based evidence to support any proposed growth. You will be immediately removed from the administration's decision-making process the day you demonstrate that you are not a groupthinker.


3) University governing bodies made up of members chosen due to political patronage that are clueless to all the above and in fact are highly susceptible to judging administration solely based on the growth they have produced.

Pretty much the only way senior university administration can impress their governing boards (made up mostly of politically connected people from the private sector) is to impress them with all the growth that they are responsible for since the governors come from private business where "if you're not growing, you're dying!"

IMO, this mantra is totally inappropriate for high education, it feeds administrator's insane need to grow (with no regard to the future revenue that will be required to maintain that growth decades later) and yields unsustainable costs with no increase in output (per the Baumol effect described above).

Rather than provide critical oversight over inappropriate proposals for growth that administrators constantly provide, they tend to be totally wow-ed by those proposals and get all starry-eyed over how forward-thinking administration is. In most cases this is BS and the only reason administration can get away with it is because the governors simply haven't a clue as to how a university actually works.

And not only does administration do nothing to resolve this cluelessness, they actively maintain it because that disconnect is exactly how they thrive (and will effectuate their movement to the next rung up the administrative ladder by generating a record of growth).


Summary:

Overall, the current state of university cost is a complicated problem where one can point to any number of causes, but the real answer is that there is fundamental rot of the foundations of the whole system, with faculty, administration, governing boards, and politicians all contributing their part to that rot.

As I said in another thread, the whole situation can be summed up by Eric Hoffer's famous (and stunningly insightful) quote:

"Every great cause starts as a movement, evolves into a business, and then degenerates into a racket."

Absolutely describes and explains what we have seen in higher education over the last 70 years.
 
What paid in 1994 for state public university total where poorly funded (no sales or income tax state) equated to first year salary as engineer. Now it costs about double your starting salary.
 
That is true. My mid 90's total degree cost was just about covered by my gross pay year 1. Maybe short by $10K at most.
Mine was late '90's (graduating 1999) and I think total bill at a state university was about 1 year salary. Feels like a good upper limit to me, debt to first year income. Which makes me not liking what we're doing for the daughter--granted, we (parents) are paying, but still feels like a bad "investment" to me.
 
Mine was late '90's (graduating 1999) and I think total bill at a state university was about 1 year salary. Feels like a good upper limit to me, debt to first year income. Which makes me not liking what we're doing for the daughter--granted, we (parents) are paying, but still feels like a bad "investment" to me.
Yes, I agree. We are paying. Luckily South Carolina is pretty generous with scholarships so my bill isn't bad. I am unsure if its a good investment, but I had the opportunity and feel like if I didn't give my kids the same I would regret it.

Something is going to have to give at some point. The next group won't have parents to pay.
 
"Every great cause starts as a movement, evolves into a business, and then degenerates into a racket."

Absolutely describes and explains what we have seen in higher education over the last 70 years.
Totally agree with your points especially this. In real world businesses and employees rise and fail, and real world rewards the productive and punishes the wasteful. In academic world we have tenures and never punishes the producers whose customers (student, parents, employers) failed.

I think more universities and more programs need to fail and shut down just like demand and supply in real world. I don't think we need a political science program for 50 PhD every year in every single university out there. There aren't enough employment opportunities or researches to fund them. Are they useful and good for human development? Sure. I just don't think spending 100-200k extra to develop a human on the human's dime is always the best money you can spend on.

Imagine telling your kid he needs to work another 10 years in his life to pay off a loan and stuck in classroom, reading literatures to make him a more compassionate person, writing paper to prove that he understands how others think he should be a more compassionate person, but not rewarding him for being a more compassionate person, is compassionate at all. This is exactly how a lot of the programs are setup these days, or to a certain degree the GE requirements for the non compassionate majors.
 
Everything in the marketplace, including college price is based on what the public is willing to pay.
Cars, homes, maintenance on your home, college. It’s all based on what the public is willing to pay.

If the public didn’t pay or take out, massive loans, prices would be lower. It’s really simple market forces.
 
Everything in the marketplace, including college price is based on what the public is willing to pay.
Cars, homes, maintenance on your home, college.

If the public didn’t pay or take out, massive loans, prices would be lower. It’s really simple market forces. Any product or institution will gladly take all the money that you are willing to give.
 
I'm finishing my MBA online at UMass Amherst next semester. Having been a traditionally taught student for 11 years of higher education, I was skeptical going into it and I'm now a HUGE fan of it. It's the same professors, same material, and tests where mostly problem and essay based and not multiple guess. You have the flexibility of you controlling your week and I averaged 8-12 hours of actual work time per course in a given week. As a FT business owner, this was a significant commitment for me. They all have recorded lectures from the in-person classes, they use Canvas as an online portal with great organization and communication. Profs are available by email and Zoom. The assignments and tests are not something you can just google easily. Most of the class assignments use your current work situation as the core of the questions and ask you to apply the material to your unique situation. This makes it both more interesting and immediately actionable and again not something you can easily google . It has been a great experience and I've learned a ton and it has changed the way I look at my business completely - truly a different person coming out than when I went in - that's what you want from the process and it delivered.


Addendum: It also cost me about $40K all-in. I'm not going to be recruited by a hedge fund like I'm graduating from Harvard Business school but this fit my needs perfectly.
Harvard will give you higher chance to be selected for an interview.
But, then it is still an interview. It happened to me. I got one job where it was between guy from Harvard and me. Turns out lying on CV is not good strategy. Regardless that one is Harvard graduate, people still check references.
So, I would not dismiss my chances just because others went to Harvard.
 
Harvard will give you higher chance to be selected for an interview.
But, then it is still an interview. It happened to me. I got one job where it was between guy from Harvard and me. Turns out lying on CV is not good strategy. Regardless that one is Harvard graduate, people still check references.
So, I would not dismiss my chances just because others went to Harvard.

That's crazy. With how interconnected we are today, somebody always knows somebody who can verify it so to lie about going to harvard is definitely a bad idea!
 
Harvard will give you higher chance to be selected for an interview.
But, then it is still an interview. It happened to me. I got one job where it was between guy from Harvard and me. Turns out lying on CV is not good strategy. Regardless that one is Harvard graduate, people still check references.
So, I would not dismiss my chances just because others went to Harvard.
Going to an IVY or really good school allows you to build a better network of contacts out in industry. It could be your drinking buddies, fraternity brothers or whatever club at university . Majority of people hired into quality jobs and companies are not off resume, school name or credentials it’s because you knew someone who referred you in or vouched to at least get you into interview pool.

Every job in my career I have gotten was a referral from person working there not blind applying.
 
Harvard will give you higher chance to be selected for an interview.
But, then it is still an interview. It happened to me. I got one job where it was between guy from Harvard and me. Turns out lying on CV is not good strategy. Regardless that one is Harvard graduate, people still check references.
So, I would not dismiss my chances just because others went to Harvard.
A degree will open the door, but you gotta walk through it. And beyond; it's what you do once you get the job.

And just because you attended a big name school does not mean you got a better education; education is what you make it.
Some schools use grad students to reach lower division classes.
 
Going to an IVY or really good school allows you to build a better network of contacts out in industry. It could be your drinking buddies, fraternity brothers or whatever club at university . Majority of people hired into quality jobs and companies are not off resume, school name or credentials it’s because you knew someone who referred you in or vouched to at least get you into interview pool.

Every job in my career I have gotten was a referral from person working there not blind applying.
Yes, but that is not unique to Harvard.
So let me expand:
My mentor contact person in organization. She contacts hiring authority. I get interview. Come for an interview, turns out hiring guy was a roommate with my mentor in 1968 in DC. OK, I meet other people and turns out our paths crossed during the Balkan wars in same places.
We get drunk during dinner (I actually thought I won’t get a job, so went with a flow, who cares). Got a call week later with job offer.
 
A degree will open the door, but you gotta walk through it. And beyond; it's what you do once you get the job.

And just because you attended a big name school does not mean you got a better education; education is what you make it.
Some schools use grad students to reach lower division classes.
Saw it happened. Department where I finished PhD hired chair that has PhD from Ivy League. They completely neglected everything else, they wanted guy from Ivy League.
Department is on the verge to be dismantled.
 
Going to an IVY or really good school allows you to build a better network of contacts out in industry. It could be your drinking buddies, fraternity brothers or whatever club at university . Majority of people hired into quality jobs and companies are not off resume, school name or credentials it’s because you knew someone who referred you in or vouched to at least get you into interview pool.

Every job in my career I have gotten was a referral from person working there not blind applying.
You're directionally correct, but I would say you're attributing the advantage to pure patronage when it's actually deeper than that.

High-end degrees play off the "Human Capital" vs "Signaling" debate about the role of higher education.

I.e., what is your degree really saying about you? That you are now a good job prospect due to all the education you've received and the skills you have acquired (i.e., Human Capital)?

Or is the degree a way for employers to know that you're a good prospect because you have some combination of skill, intellect, sticktoitiveness, grit, organization, work ethic, personal responsibility, etc. that it is evidenced by your ability to get accepted into a high-end institution and complete a degree there (i.e., Signaling)?

While the Human Capital dimension of receiving a degree is not zero (if you want a job as a programmer, probably a good idea to have learned some programming), the evidence seems overwhelming that Signaling is the main point of a degree.

E.g., as part of my community outreach, I met with many tech businesses to discuss workforce development. They were pretty uniform in their opinion that specific skills like programming were (ironically) low on their lists. This is because whatever programming a student might have learned would likely be completely obsolete within ~10 years.

So, their attitude was, don't worry about how much programming they know as they would be happy to teach them that on the job.

What they were really looking for was a "high quality human being" that was intelligent, nimble of mind, could roll with the punches (rather than collapse) when the paradigms change, had the ability to stick with a hard problem and struggle with it over the long-term so as to get it over the finish line (even when they were sick of dealing with it), had cultural competency, ability to work in teams, good communication skills and potential to grow into leadership roles.

Basically, Human Capital (i.e., what they learned in class) wasn't particularly relevant, but Signaling as to how they learned (speed, persistence, grit, not being high maintenance as a student) was far more critical as far as what employers are looking to hire for.

And what was the strongest indicator that a student had those "soft" traits of grit, determination, intelligence, organization, responsibility, etc.? Getting accepted to a high-end university and completing their degree with a high GPA.

So, it's not really patronage that's the key advantage in having a high-end degree (though that does exist). It's the fact that a university degree (and the level of university you got it from) is mostly a signal about what kind of person you are and has surprisingly little to do with what you actually learned.

The Human Capital vs Signaling debate is critical in framing what higher education is and how to fund it. Unfortunately, as with so many other critical factors, both higher administration and governing boards are clueless about this, so they just engage in a vicious cycle of "mindless growth at all cost" approach to their work, ignoring the true mission of their role as educators.
 
You're directionally correct, but I would say you're attributing the advantage to pure patronage when it's actually deeper than that.

High-end degrees play off the "Human Capital" vs "Signaling" debate about the role of higher education.

I.e., what is your degree really saying about you? That you are now a good job prospect due to all the education you've received and the skills you have acquired (i.e., Human Capital)?

Or is the degree a way for employers to know that you're a good prospect because you have some combination of skill, intellect, sticktoitiveness, grit, organization, work ethic, personal responsibility, etc. that it is evidenced by your ability to get accepted into a high-end institution and complete a degree there (i.e., Signaling)?

While the Human Capital dimension of receiving a degree is not zero (if you want a job as a programmer, probably a good idea to have learned some programming), the evidence seems overwhelming that Signaling is the main point of a degree.

E.g., as part of my community outreach, I met with many tech businesses to discuss workforce development. They were pretty uniform in their opinion that specific skills like programming were (ironically) low on their lists. This is because whatever programming a student might have learned would likely be completely obsolete within ~10 years.

So, their attitude was, don't worry about how much programming they know as they would be happy to teach them that on the job.

What they were really looking for was a "high quality human being" that was intelligent, nimble of mind, could roll with the punches (rather than collapse) when the paradigms change, had the ability to stick with a hard problem and struggle with it over the long-term so as to get it over the finish line (even when they were sick of dealing with it), had cultural competency, ability to work in teams, good communication skills and potential to grow into leadership roles.

Basically, Human Capital (i.e., what they learned in class) wasn't particularly relevant, but Signaling as to how they learned (speed, persistence, grit, not being high maintenance as a student) was far more critical as far as what employers are looking to hire for.

And what was the strongest indicator that a student had those "soft" traits of grit, determination, intelligence, organization, responsibility, etc.? Getting accepted to a high-end university and completing their degree with a high GPA.

So, it's not really patronage that's the key advantage in having a high-end degree (though that does exist). It's the fact that a university degree (and the level of university you got it from) is mostly a signal about what kind of person you are and has surprisingly little to do with what you actually learned.

The Human Capital vs Signaling debate is critical in framing what higher education is and how to fund it. Unfortunately, as with so many other critical factors, both higher administration and governing boards are clueless about this, so they just engage in a vicious cycle of "mindless growth at all cost" approach to their work, ignoring the true mission of their role as educators.
As someone in the tech industry, I am pretty unconvinced by this conventional wisdom. I'm my experience, employers are VERY concerned about the actual skills technology workers bring to the table. Those soft skills are important, but whether or not you are proficient in specific technologies is more so. Most often, technical people are hired into a project that has a delivery schedule. Employers are hiring people to ensure that the project is completed on time so the skills that you currently possess are paramount.

In any large company, there is a usually a disconnect between what upper management thinks and what lower level management (who does the hiring) actually does.
 
As someone in the tech industry, I am pretty unconvinced by this conventional wisdom. I'm my experience, employers are VERY concerned about the actual skills technology workers bring to the table. Those soft skills are important, but whether or not you are proficient in specific technologies is more so. Most often, technical people are hired into a project that has a delivery schedule. Employers are hiring people to ensure that the project is completed on time so the skills that you currently possess are paramount.

In any large company, there is a usually a disconnect between what upper management thinks and what lower level management (who does the hiring) actually does.
I agree skills matter however the way you placed into queue of candidates being interviewed is connections , then skills shake out coupled to personality traits and if they believe you can up skill into role.
 
As someone in the tech industry, I am pretty unconvinced by this conventional wisdom. I'm my experience, employers are VERY concerned about the actual skills technology workers bring to the table. Those soft skills are important, but whether or not you are proficient in specific technologies is more so. Most often, technical people are hired into a project that has a delivery schedule. Employers are hiring people to ensure that the project is completed on time so the skills that you currently possess are paramount.

In any large company, there is a usually a disconnect between what upper management thinks and what lower level management (who does the hiring) actually does.

Note that the Human Capital vs Signaling debate is far from "conventional knowledge." Most people, even in higher education administration, are completely unaware of it!

And as I said, the Human Capital dimension is non-zero, and of course if you're hiring into a tight time schedule, then, yeah, immediate skill deployment will be important.

That said, absolutely yes, many employers have been burned by the "get someone in the door ASAP so they can get working in the project," then it turns out that they're out sick all the time (no grit/determination), are harassing the females in the office (lacking cultural competence), often in late but can't stay late because their kids have activities after school (disorganized), and when the next new thing in programming comes along, they are stymied (little nimbleness of mind).

A little like saying "I need a used car quick, so I'll just go get the cheapest thing that I can get the quickest." Might work out ok, but probably more likely that next time you'll suffer a little marginal downtime in order to get the productivity you need over the long-term.

And yes, the higher-ups often have different strategies than the mid-levels that have to hire, but often that's not a negative as it's not uncommon that the midlevel guys just want to get the hire done to get it off their plate while the higher-ups are more interested in getting the right person, even if it takes a little extra time. Of course, it could be the reverse as well, where the higher-ups want the hire done fast and the mid-levels want it done right.

Anyway, I could go through additional evidence for Signaling over Human Capital if you're interested.
 
A study was done on Alabama and the Saban effect. A successful program does drive admissions, especially from out of state students who pay more. However, not all schools will experience the same increase as Alabama. It's silly I know but it's advertising.
About 10 years ago or so they lost every game they played. CU fired the coach and had to pay out his remaining three years. I almost wanted to apply as I physically couldn't have done any worse.
 
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