College costs

[edyvw]

When you account for the mandatory athletic-department fees every student has to pay, every sports program at every uni is in the red without those. The money raised by the sports programs stays within the athletic department and does not benefit the uni as a whole. Some unis have gotten slick and now don't break out these fees.

True. It is a problem, and it definitely drives costs up.

To make matters worse, many alumni and donors earmark their contributions strictly to a uni's athletic department. T. Boone Pickens was a prime example. He paid big for Oklahoma State's football stadium, which is named for him. He didn't contribute to setting up STEM scholarships for future employees to keep his oil business going. Isn't that odd!

I mean, it is his money, but then the school is stuck with this huge logistical undertaking once the money dries up.

To give an idea of misplaced priorities, when I was taking engineering at Virginia Tech, the state's best engineering school, the engineering accreditation was supposedly endangered at the time due to a lack of class space, which was not being addressed. Yet at the time VT had plenty of money to improve the athletic stadium, expand a major athletic building, and start building a new athletic dorm. Go figure.

Oh man, is this true. I am trying to recruit one guy whose profile would be a big recruitment draw for us. I told him immediately that he won't have an office! He's fine with it, but still...

About Phoenix University and similar schools, the word is that at a lot of large employers the HR departments routinely throw away or delete job applications and resumes from those who list a for-profit college as the source of their degree. Today's students don't know about this because no one is explaining this and the problem of unaccredited schools to them. Phoenix is accredited, but some others are not, so credits won't transfer to other institutions and nobody in the real world takes the costly degree seriously.

Several issues here: Yes, employers will exhaust every other option before hiring someone from Phoenix. Although they are HLC accredited, their programs are not (a huge majority at least). I work on accreditation for one accrediting body, and the amount of work schools have to do to get accredited is insane, and it is designed to protect students from predatory schools.
But advising students is a big issue. That is why AI won't work. We have contracts with all major software companies that do student screening, etc., and at the end of the day, the amount of confusion these programs create is absolutely insane. A graduate specialist and I tracked students who were lost due to various software glitches, totaling around 45.
We lost that graduate specialist as she moved out of state, but she was absolutely instrumental in recruiting students. Now I am going through a mental exercise of convincing the administration again why a living and breathing person at the desk is instrumental in recruiting. Students want to talk to people.

To go with that, I've seen too many stories online from parents whose kids—often a daughter, but sons do this too—received full scholarships from a state school that would have left them with little or no debt for a sensible degree, but she chose an expensive out-of-state liberal-arts college because she "fell in love with the campus" and "felt right at home there".

Those are mostly kids of wealthy parents. But I have seen some really ridiculous educational decisions. I had a student who finished a Master's in CJ (not my department, but we work closely), and he was really, really good. He gets a full ride from the University of Maryland to do a PhD. He goes one semester and then gives up because it is not a cohort program. But then, I had a guy doing a PhD with me, 4,000+ hours on F15 Strike Eagle, four Master's degrees, and he got kicked out of the program because he plagiarized some presentation at the Pentagon. I still use that case to explain to people how intelligence is relative. He had to pay all the money back; luckily, he kept his rank of Colonel.

 

[JeffKeryk]

Education is common good. How much we fund it tells a lot about us.

Well said. It changed my life.

 

[SC Maintenance]

Education is common good. How much we fund it tells a lot about us.

I would agree with the sentiment but it seems the one's spending the money are not on the same program, or aren't very often.

 

[alarmguy]

Back then people can go to college by working part time. No way can that support it today. Also gold was $35/oz, now it is what? $4200?

I think I remember back in my UC days the university funding has about 30-40% came from federal and state funding each, and 20-30% of the income was from tuitions. I don't think that's the case today and a lot more is from student loans now.

Well honestly, back then most kids worked for $1.60 to $1.85 an hour, now at places like Walmart the wages START at $14.00 an hour
Work in a restaurant or pub and you can triple that or more.

I think in a forum tuition costs are overstated. In-state SC Clemson is $15,000 a year. The state also has a scholarship program.
New York State tution is free if family income is under $125,000 a year
CA off Campus is roughly $15,000 a year.
If one lives on Campus in CA up to $22,000 is offered in grants and scholarships to undergrads.

Not saying anything is easy. But "back then" working part time paid less than $2 a hour. The majority of today's college kids are not very focused on what they want to do and not many have ever held a job/ many would be better in trade schools of which also teach technology laden careers. Some companies and health networks prefer that. As they come out certified in their field.

 

[AZjeff]

Some might say we had a sufficiently skilled workforce when taxpayers subsidized education far more than they do today.
I say make them pay. We can always make things in China.

Community college is much lower cost as they don't have research, sport league program, and a lot of the cost is based on property tax.

Did we see the part about no tuition? Like it or not, believe it or not, argue all you want but it's human nature for many to not take things as seriously when you have nothing invested as when you do.

I remember in the late 70's and 80's when so many young men came back from the military and filled electronics tech classes at West Valley JC.

I would argue those men earned those classes.

 

[edyvw]

Did we see the part about no tuition? Like it or not, believe it or not, argue all you want but it's human nature for many to not take things as seriously when you have nothing invested as when you do.


I would argue those men earned those classes.

Sure. But we also subsidize a lot of things with questionable return on investment.
I mean, just peak at DoD.

 

[Pew]

This gets into a pet peeve, which is that we're expecting 17–year-olds to make major life-changing decisions about uni, majors, and debt without adequate guidance. This is how you end up with people going $250,000 in debt getting a degree in philosophy or French literature. High-school guidance counselors are clueless. They tell students such nonsense as, "Get the most expensive education you can, as it will pay for itself," and "It's not what major you take, but what you do with the degree." The counselors aren't discussing useless majors or the inability to discharge student loans in bankruptcy. The kids planning to go to uni have no clue about this stuff, as I've confirmed myself in talking to some people in their 20s.

Yea I remember being told constantly by teachers, counselors, etc on this how much a person with no degree makes, this is how much one with an associates makes...etc etc. Never once do I remember them talking about how much it was. They also did not teach personal finance in my HS. Some middle schools like mine did but that doesn't help when the other 6 surrounding middle schools may not have it

Like you said, we're expecting 16-18 year olds to make one of the most expensive and life changing events they'll ever have. They have no clue what to do, they look to the adults in their life in hopes they'll give good guidance.

I do want to ask our post cv19 college grad hires what they think of growing up watching their country at war for their entire life, economy, job market, and how they see their place in it. I expect my eye to be opened up in their experiences, particularly growing up during war.

 

[Donald]

I came across the statements from my sophomore year at University of Portland, a private college. I graduated in May 1975. Fall of 1972 total cost for tuition, room and board and bunch of misc charges was $ 1,474. Winter/spring of 1973 was $ 1,405. Total for the year was $ 2,879.

That was very expensive, or so it seemed. I remember people who worked and went to school, paying their way as they went. No one can do that now. It seemed huge that I had $ 4,500 of school loan debt when I graduated. I think I had it paid off by 1978. I have always been severely allergic to debt.

My private college in West Virginia was about $3200 a year for room, board and tuition. Plus books & beer. Books a few hundred. Beer ???

And with my mom being a professor at Rutgers I could have gone there for free tuition.

 

[SC Maintenance]

Did we see the part about no tuition? Like it or not, believe it or not, argue all you want but it's human nature for many to not take things as seriously when you have nothing invested as when you do.

I would argue if it was meritocracy based, and the ability to stay in the program was competitive, it would do a better job of keeping the right kids in college, not just the kids who's parents can afford it.

Anyway I think on line school is the future, and it should be far more cost effective. It doesn't have to be "a joke" any more than a in person class, although I sat through plenty of worthless college classes with even more worthless professors back before online was even a dream.

 

[edyvw]

I would argue if it was meritocracy based, and the ability to stay in the program was competitive, it would do a better job of keeping the right kids in college, not just the kids who's parents can afford it.

Anyway I think on line school is the future, and it should be far more cost effective. It doesn't have to be "a joke" any more than a in person class, although I sat through plenty of worthless college classes with even more worthless professors back before online was even a dream.

Online is getting less popular with serious students. Military students absolutely hate it.
From educational perspective, I say to people that if they want their kids to fail in life, go online.

 

[Number_35]

Don't get me started, mine are both in university and we're a single income family; tuition costs are just the tip of the iceberg.

Twenty-five or so years ago one of my co-workers used to say stuff like "Yup, bought a top-of-the-line big-screen TV yesterday - gave it to the U of M" and so on, with the value of the consumer goods he was missing out on proportional to how many children he was paying tuition for.

 

[edyvw]

Yea I remember being told constantly by teachers, counselors, etc on this how much a person with no degree makes, this is how much one with an associates makes...etc etc. Never once do I remember them talking about how much it was. They also did not teach personal finance in my HS. Some middle schools like mine did but that doesn't help when the other 6 surrounding middle schools may not have it

Like you said, we're expecting 16-18 year olds to make one of the most expensive and life changing events they'll ever have. They have no clue what to do, they look to the adults in their life in hopes they'll give good guidance.

I do want to ask our post cv19 college grad hires what they think of growing up watching their country at war for their entire life, economy, job market, and how they see their place in it. I expect my eye to be opened up in their experiences, particularly growing up during war.

Advisor that doesn’t say cost is not serious advisor/institution. Common practice by predatory schools like American Military University or Colorado Tech is to only give credit hour cost, which is usually capped at $500 in those schools.
What they don’t tell are fees.
We had chief of police asking us to do cost for police department. Colorado Tech gave them some preferential treatment. In the end we ended up $3000 cheaper for whole degree without any cost savings.

 

[Number_35]

IIRC, tuition for my B.A. started at $250 per semester in 1975 and by '79 was around $500/semester.

My electronics diploma was even cheaper - $125 per semester (1980 to '82). Probably more heavily subsidised by the government, and perhaps wisely so. They've certainly gotten it back in taxes since then.

 

[JeffKeryk]

Online is getting less popular with serious students. Military students absolutely hate it.
From educational perspective, I say to people that if they want their kids to fail in life, go online.

Yep. My grand niece, a Marine right outta HS, hates on-line classes.

 

[JeffKeryk]

Did we see the part about no tuition? Like it or not, believe it or not, argue all you want but it's human nature for many to not take things as seriously when you have nothing invested as when you do.


I would argue those men earned those classes.

The Military students were not part of today's tuition free; it was part of their service compensation.
At the time, mine was paid by Silicon Valley companies. By the way, the Military vets were top students; their work ethic was on another level.

There will always be students that don't take college seriously, and/or do not put enough effort in, regardless of cost.
Our Community Colleges are our CA Superpower. Grads get better jobs, pay more taxes and are generally happier people.

If we don't take college seriously, we cannot compete. We need more qualified people. Why do you think people come from far to work here? The US does not service the demand.

I am a Uber late blooming grad from CA public schools, DeAnza Community College and San Jose State University. I used to be a dangerous purge on society. These schools took a broken man and made me into a productive, tax paying citizen. I got my degree at 40; Major in High Tech Business, double minor in Economics and Computer Science. Let's just say their investment has resulted in pretty substantial tax revenue...

I am the most pro-education person on the planet. CA didn't become this incredible economic powerhouse by accident. Silicon Valley alone is like the 16th biggest economy in the world. The results, the numbers, don't lie.

I believe in, and practice, long term investment. The single most important investment is in prople. I learned that from the C-Level in the Valley.

 

[SC Maintenance]

Online is getting less popular with serious students. Military students absolutely hate it.
From educational perspective, I say to people that if they want their kids to fail in life, go online.

People who want to learn can learn fine online. Those who don't want to learn won't learn anywhere.

Sitting through an in person is an illusion of better. Its almost never interactive anyway. Most college professors are not professional educators. There just knowledgeable on their topic. Big difference.

 

[JeffKeryk]

People who want to learn can learn fine online. Those who don't want to learn won't learn anywhere.

Sitting through an in person is an illusion of better. Its almost never interactive anyway. Most college professors are not professional educators. There just knowledgeable on their topic. Big difference.

Sure, but that's not the point. The option of on-line classes is great, IMO; I continue to make use of it. Having said that, the synergy of the classroom is key especially early on. We are social animals and benefit greatly from interaction with others.

 

[SC Maintenance]

Sure, but that's not the point. The option of on-line classes is great, IMO; I continue to make use of it. Having said that, the synergy of the classroom is key especially early on. We are social animals and benefit greatly from interaction with others.

But there is not a lot of interaction in a lot of classes, and most professors are there to do research, see undergrad as chore, and were never actually trained to teach anyway.

I took 6 college calculus classes, did well in every one of them, and never learned a darn thing from the guy at the front writing a long differential equation on then a chalk board. I learned it all out of the text book later. In industry training has been done online for a couple decades because its proven to work. These are people that quantify every dollar spent - not some hypothetical argument.

Online is definitely a trend that will continue. Maybe 100% online is not good either, but much of it is. Get on the train or get runover.

 

[PandaBear]

IIRC, tuition for my B.A. started at $250 per semester in 1975 and by '79 was around $500/semester.

My electronics diploma was even cheaper - $125 per semester (1980 to '82). Probably more heavily subsidised by the government, and perhaps wisely so. They've certainly gotten it back in taxes since then.

I think I paid about $5000 / quarter back in the late 90s. Last time I talk to a friend whose son go to UCSC last year and they said he is paying about 50k a year total with tuition + dorm. That'll be a 200k degree in the end but a necessary if going into electrical / computer field these days.

I am not sure if I would trust sending my kids to a cheaper school if he can get into a better one for the right degree. I hire people and I can see the difference in the quality of people coming out of some of them and the lack of. Maybe that's due to the admission screening instead of their education quality, I don't know, there definitely is something I wouldn't take a risk on if I can afford to send them somewhere better at least after transfer out of a CC.

 

[PandaBear]

People who want to learn can learn fine online. Those who don't want to learn won't learn anywhere.

Sitting through an in person is an illusion of better. Its almost never interactive anyway. Most college professors are not professional educators. There just knowledgeable on their topic. Big difference.

I think that statement has a bit of truth in small scale and a bit of survivor bias in the large scale. I can see people argue all day and not come to a conclusion. I have seen people do poorly online doing well in person both at work and in school. What I can see is that living at home save money and doing online courses cut down on commute hours.

Saying online learning is just as good is like saying San Jose State is just as good as UCLA or UCB. You can believe it if you want to, but you can't prevent people from not buying it.