Cold kitchen

[JHZR2]

Hi,

My 1930's house is a regular foursquare, but the kitchen is somewhat of an "extension" off the restof the house. About half of the kitchen volume falls within the "square" of the house structure, the other half is a single-story structure that goes off the house. its all original, there is basement below and it is all the same cellar walls, etc.

But the roof above just makes an open triangle which is not insulated as far as I know. The walls do have some old, white fluff blown-in insulation, but the walls are still cold.

The rest of the house holds heat well enough, it is not drafty, is pretty consistent, etc. The half of the kitchen that has the roof right overtop is cold, floor to ceiling.

My house only has one zone, but it stays comfortable consistently. The rest of the house will be at 63F like we maintain it, and the kitchen is 54F.

The kitchen does have a radiator like the rest of the rooms, and it puts out good heat.

So what can I do to warm this? Would putting insulation under the floor (like between the joists in the basement) help? Im going to close up the stud pockets from down in the basement (I cant access above), would that help much?

Ultimately I will add insulation up above, when I pull down the ceiling (the old plaster has a couple cracks, so might as well pull it before sheetrocking). But until then, I want to make it better.

The raditor is possibly a bit undersized for the collective kitchen and butler's pantry which is attached and not heated. Any recommendations for a small, tasteful space heater (the house has classic cast iron radiators, so modern baseboard heat would look funny).

Thanks!

 

[JOD]

If you have access from underneath, I'd run PEX into the bays, tack them up with diffuser plates and heat the floors. If you have a radiator, you should have a source of hot water close by, right?

I got all of my supplies from these guys: http://www.radiantcompany.com/

They're great to deal with, and while you may be able to find some individual stuff cheaper, their expertise is invaluable. I'd never messed with radiant heat before, and they helped me though the whole process of heating a fairly large house. For your situation (a small, single zone), this should be really easy. My sunroom (where I am right now!) is similar to your kitchen, out of the main roof line. I'm nice and toasty during snowmageddon...

This is obviously more work that a space heater, but it's not as difficult as it may seem, and the results are totally worth it IMO.

 

[JHZR2]

Interesting. Going through two layers of wood that make up the floor wont cause me to either damage the wood long-term or heat the basement as much as the kitchen?

Thanks!

 

[Smokescreen]

Your indoor temps are lower than I am used to, but if you are comfortable with it that is what matters. My brother has a house similar to what you describe. His place suffers from poor windows as well as poor insulation, not sure about your window situation.

If you do have windows the short term inexpensive fix are those window kits that have the thin plastic and you smooth out the wrinkles with a hairdryer. It really works.

I sometimes use a oil filled space heater similar to this: http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1v/R-...catalogId=10053 with great results, but they work best in rooms that are not exposed to a outside door or the like. If your kitchen has a door in it that could be another source of air leak. Also most radiators take quite a while to get the room to recover from a cold draft from and open door, so you are looking for some time before it bounces back to regular. Small fan forced ones are quicker to help the room recover and have their place too http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1v/R-...catalogId=10053

Other than that the biggest loss is what you already know...the ceiling attic needs insulation. Since heat rises that is where the majority of your heat goes, some out the walls but mostly out the ceiling. Since cold goes down insulation on your floor probably wouldn't do much unless your basement is unheated and colder than the rest of the house.

 

[Clevy]

Insulate the ceiling. Heat rises. Be sure to have proper venting or you will have an ice dam nightmare if you are in a climate that has winter.
That pex pipe is a good idea. It will warm the floor. Wood is a thermal bridge and will transfer the heat.

 

[meangreen01]

Insulation will definitely help, but if that doesn't cut it than something like this may be a solution:

Toe Kick Heater

These work really nice. They're fan powered to push the heat out and are unobtrusive so as not to clash with the classic radiators in the rest of the house.

 

[rjacket]

Heat rises. A very cheap fix is to install a ceiling fan which has a reverse mode and pushes the heat back down.

 

[IndyIan]

Where's the kitchen rad on your loop? Maybe reverse the sequence for the house until you get the kitchen insulated?
Maybe somewhere in this forum you can find some help. http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-category/76/THE-MAIN-WALL

 

[JHZR2]

I have new windows (HATE vinyl windows, so ugly compared to real sash windows), that are well-sealed. I have an entry door in the kitchem, but I have a new storm door that makes a good enough air pocket on it that it can be tough to close. Well sealed, though the door does have a slight gap (on the bottom, not the top).

Insulation is definitely the way ahead, but (1) I have two knob and tube light circuits in there so cant just blow insulation on them (according to code as I understand it), and (2) Im going to redo the kitchen as soon as I save for it (not saving for it fast), so I dont want to rip off the roof or the ceiling to get insulation in there prematurely (unless someone knows something or can advise otherwise).

Im likeing the Pex idea. The kitchen has a back stairs that enables heat loss upwards in the rest of the house, and IMO the radiator is undersized for the size of the room.

 

[JOD]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Interesting. Going through two layers of wood that make up the floor wont cause me to either damage the wood long-term or heat the basement as much as the kitchen?

Thanks!


-it will heat the kitchen, not the basement (it actually won't provide any heat to the basement, if you hoping for any residual heat). The diffuser plates heat the wood, the wood gets warm, and the heat rises--but it radiates though the structure (hence the name). That's the cool thing about radiant heat; the walls, even though they aren't heated, are basically warm to the touch. You don't feel any hot spots, and everything just feels warm. Also, 60 degrees feels like 68 or 70 degrees of forced air heat. I have 3 layers of wood in half of my house, and it makes it though just fine.

-damage to the floor? Quick answer, "no", longer answer, "it depends, but it won't if you do it right". If you have old top flooring, you have nothing to worry about. If you have newly-placed flooring, you may get some expansion/contraction at the joints, even with old/reclaimed boards if you're using a soft wood like fir. If you're using a new-growth soft wood, you may get some drying. Most of my sunroom is reclaimed old-growth fir. There was a bit of expansion there, but not much. I did notice a bit of drying on some new-growth boards I had to buy, but nothing too objectionable. OTOH, the original fir and oak floors in the rest of the house are 100% unaffected. They're original to the house, and >100 years old. They were refinished just after I installed the heat. That was around 10 years ago.

This assumes you aren't running the water too hot. Per the recommendation from the heating guys, the water runs at 120 degrees, and it looses very little heat in operation, 7-8 degrees or so depending on the ambient temperatures.

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: JOD
This assumes you aren't running the water too hot. Per the recommendation from the heating guys, the water runs at 120 degrees, and it looses very little heat in operation, 7-8 degrees or so depending on the ambient temperatures.


So do you have a separate heater for the radiant?

I have an outdoor reset on my furnace, which keeps the water temps low, and for CI radiators, the spec max is something like 160F anyway...

But if the boiler hits the 160 point, then what? Its too hot for the radiant system? Or do you limit water temp on this some other way?

 

[meangreen01]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2


So do you have a separate heater for the radiant?

I have an outdoor reset on my furnace, which keeps the water temps low, and for CI radiators, the spec max is something like 160F anyway...

But if the boiler hits the 160 point, then what? Its too hot for the radiant system? Or do you limit water temp on this some other way?




Normally, the max temp your reset and aquastats are set at is 180F. As to the question of adding a lower temp radiant circuit you'd need a mixing valve:

Taco Mixing Valve

160 is too hot for floor heating. I don't know what temp you would need for effective heating with the installation style you're considering, but when I've set-up systems where the tubing was placed between the subfloor and whatever(tile hardwood flooring) temps were set to 90-110F.

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: meangreen01
Originally Posted By: JHZR2


So do you have a separate heater for the radiant?

I have an outdoor reset on my furnace, which keeps the water temps low, and for CI radiators, the spec max is something like 160F anyway...

But if the boiler hits the 160 point, then what? Its too hot for the radiant system? Or do you limit water temp on this some other way?


Normally, the max temp your reset and aquastats are set at is 180F. As to the question of adding a lower temp radiant circuit you'd need a mixing valve:

Taco Mixing Valve


Peerless provided the "correct" max temperature for various systems, from cast iron radiators to CI baseboard to Cu baseboard, etc. I set my temp per that.

Thanks for the mixing valve. Wasnt aware...

 

[Pop_Rivit]

The other than adding an additional heat source, the only way you'll really warm up the area is to insulate-all exposed sides as well as the top and bottom. Then close up the gaps under that door, and make sure the windows are tight.

And on a side note, most insurance companies won't underwrite a house that still has knob and tube wiring, for good reason. I'd be more concerned about getting rid of that antique fire hazard than I would insulation at this point. If it were my home I'd have that out of there yesterday.

 

[andyd]

Get a couple pairs of sheep skin slippers with fleece. Way cheaper than renovating. When you have an organized plan, renovate the ell. I have one off the "old" part of the house. It is our main access point. It is on cement block piers. Over the years, I have replaced the walls, doors and windows,rafters and floor and the wiring.

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: Pop_Rivit
The other than adding an additional heat source, the only way you'll really warm up the area is to insulate-all exposed sides as well as the top and bottom. Then close up the gaps under that door, and make sure the windows are tight.

And on a side note, most insurance companies won't underwrite a house that still has knob and tube wiring, for good reason. I'd be more concerned about getting rid of that antique fire hazard than I would insulation at this point. If it were my home I'd have that out of there yesterday.

Between the fact that it is only on a few lighting circuits that are extrodinarily hard to reach, the fact that ever area of it that I have seen is in great shape, the fact that I have arc fault breakers, etc. Im pretty confident that it is safe so long as I treat it right. Where it is left Id have to severely rip up the house.

Windows are tight, door bottom is tight, veritcal walls have blown in insulation. Only above and below are not insulated.

 

[JOD]

generally, the heating system I installed calls for 120 degrees, which is where my hot water heater is set. As meangreen mentioned, a mixing valve can lower the temps coming from your boiler.

My whole house runs off of one hot water heater, but I live in a moderate climate, and the lower story is very well-insulated since it's new; 6" walls, fully insulated, double-pain wood windows. The upper story is 4" walls with single pane double hung windows, and it still stays plenty warm. If you're just heating a small area, you should be able to pull from an existing water source with zero problem. If you decide to expand the area though, you should probably seek some counsel on how much water you need.

If you want to explore it more, I'd give those guys @ the Radiant Floor Company a holler. They can give you an idea how how best to plumb the system given your current set-up, and give you a rough idea of what you'd be looking at for materials.

As far as knob and tube goes... about 99% of the houses in my neighborhood have some knob and tube. Typically, people "upgrade" the stuff you can see, in the basement, crawl space or attic, but leave the knob and tube in the walls. I don't see houses burning down left and right. And honestly, I haven't seen it called on an insurance rider or policy in probably 3 or 4 years (there was a time when locally only Farmers wrote policies on it, but it seems that most companies around here have changed their minds). If the wires aren't touching and they have insulation on them, it's safe IMO. And really, the only way to upgrade is to do what I did and gut the place completely. Otherwise, fishing wires through walls is either time or expense few are willing to do.

 

[Shannow]

Our kitchen (see pic thread is a skillion out the back of the original squar(ish) structue.

we replaced the Asbestos walls with sheetrock, and while open put in R1.5 batts and foil backed sarking. Roof added a regular height floating cieling with 3.5 batts at 2400mm heigh (versus the angles skillion), and left the old floor boards down with a modern "structafloor" over the top, to be topped with a floating timber floor.

It's part of a complete overhaul, but that particular room, even on the North West (consider US SW, due to the equiator) was a cold damp, useless space in winter, and a sauna in summer.

Only seen the summer, but with the insulation, it's been incredibly nice to be in, even when 5KW of cooking is going on. (Range hood vented outside helps too, and it's got a non return flap to limit cold air falling back in.