Clickers, Frams, and E-cores, oh my (pics)

[Filter guy]

I won't be getting any "free" trips out of this..lol. I'm going to Oregon for a College football game with my Son, Brother, Brother in law and his son. Notre Dame v Washington September 24th. I've got connections to get tickets. Go Irish..

We'll drive up to Seattle for the day to go to the game in my BIL's SUV. But i'm going to hang a round for the week, go to the coast for a couple days, play some golf..but i'd be willing to take a day out of my own time to go have a look.

And no...don't ask, I can't get you tickets..

 

[lubeowner]

One would think that after doing 15,000 oil changes a year I would know how to do it right. I have only been working on cars for 16 years so I guess I have a lot more learning to do, especially when it comes to a difficult task like screwing on an oil filter, and adding the proper wt. and quantity of oil.

About the oil, we feature Chevron oil and have a computerized service manual system that gives us the exact wt. specified by the manufacturer of each vehicle, and we will not deviate from that. Even if the customer wants to put 20w-50 in their new Honda we won't knowingly contribute to their engine failure and void of warranty.


To all those that still think I am full of chit or don't know how to run my business, or want me to spend my whole day documenting every filter, every car, every oil type, yea right. If someone wants to pay me $100 an hour to do this I might make time, if not I will keep posting pics of what I find when I have time. Anyone can flame me all they want, I don't care.

Again, thanks to those who have suppoted my efforts.

 

[wiswind]

Filter Guy,
I think that you and Lubeowner are BOTH great people, I like both of your posts....you both seam to be very smart people.

Lubeowner 'could' be totally wrong, in that the 'clicker' has nothing to do with the failure....or he could be right.
ONE thing that he IS right about, is that he is seeing failures.

In the medical equipment service field, I truely understand the importance of BOTH engineering lab tests, and the real world. There is NO lab like the real world.....I am just where I like to be....in between the LAB....and the real world.

If a product fails for me.....it does not matter what tests have gone into the development of the product........all that I care about is that the item FAILED.

I used FRAM.....YES the orange can of death for YEARS and years......I got VERY concerned when...suddenly my orange FRAM was $2.49.
I got, 140+K miles, and 178+K miles out of engines with FRAM filters.......had to let go of the cars because the bodies were falling apart.....engine was fine.

On my '96 windstar, at 147+K miles.....and still going strong (Knock on wood), I used the FRAM X2 filter...just over $9 at Walmart......I saw another poster (Geaser?) post pics....and his evaluation of it......seemed like it looked just fine. I now am using WIX, for $4.30, plus shipping.....I also use Mobil 1 oil....and change every 3k miles....or so.......which is great for cold Wisconsin winter startups.

I maintain my vehicle the way I do....because...
1 I'm too CHEAP to run out an buy another car every few years.
2. I build a big margin of error into my maintenance program....

LUBEOWNER....You are the real world....that engineers behind the design of any oil filter would LOVE to have available to them....you are where the tire meets the pavement.
I wonder if you have seen any of he Fram X2 filters. They are available at Walmart. They use a different type of filter media....and the pleats in the media are backed by a wire mesh.
They also use a silicon anti-drainback valve.
They are a bit pricey.....and I would guess that you will do better for the price....but I was just wondering if you have seen them....If not....is OK.

Also, I was thinking....perhaps some kind of "newsletter" if you send any service reminders to customers.... or....if not....some kind of flyer that tells your customers a few things about what you put into your business.....Like.....how you decide what filter to use....oil to use.....recommendations on service intervals. Many businesses do that....and I think that telling your customers something about all the work that you put into the selection of what you put on their cars.......will make them feel even better about selecting you to service their car. Like I have heard a few airline pilots say over the PA system as we taxi up to the gate...."We know that you have a number of choices.....we thank you for selecting US". Customer loyalty......YOU deserve it......You have earned it.

[ March 22, 2005, 09:19 PM: Message edited by: wiswind ]

 

[Filter guy]

Lubeowner:
Certainly I never questioned your shops ability to do the job. And those that have are idiots themselves and maybe they should come work for a day or two at your place. Selling filters since 1982 , I have the utmost repect for those who do oil changes.

All I wanted was more information from the oil changes themselves on the filters you cut open. Which was the simple few questions I proposed. I was under the impression that it is standard operating procedure to log some of those things into the computer when an oil change shop does their work. I added a few questions for the vehicle owner to fill out as they wait for the service to be done. The only thing that I added that would be of interest is the dipstick level. Which shouldn't take to long to do. I did ask about the oil brand you use just out of curiosity. Makes no difference to me what brand it is. And you have no control over what is the oil brand in the vehicles you service.

But I wouldn't pay you $100 per hour to do the paperwork. That's why I offered my son to do it, if it was a bit to much of your time..lol

 

[Greaser]

Lets all go to http://www.baldwinfilters.com/inside/bu.html

 

[Filter guy]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Greaser:
Lets all go to http://www.baldwinfilters.com/inside/bu.html

---

Now you're talking...

That's what I did for about 7 years. From Belgium to Thailand and points inbetween..

PS: Except I never had my back to the camera..lol
I had the Chinese Government film my entire seminar. And they let me out of the country..

 

[Gary Allan]

quote:

---

Anyone can flame me all they want, I don't care.

---

I didn't detect any flame here

I'm glad that you're sharing this information ...but a few here have some more questions. You've got some serious conditions there that don't appear to occur on a regular (or even infrequent ..more like rarely) basis with the membership.


We're curious. This is unusual and we're the investigative type. There may be something more to the picture that isn't apparent on the surface. I can understand that you're busy. If you happen to take note to the car that a damaged filter came off ..and it is a regular ..and you happen to know the OCI and the time frame ...maybe you could share that with us as well. It would be a real help in nailing this down to a faulty filter ..or a faulty customer.

Neither is a reflection upon you as a service provider.

 

[TurboJim]

quote:

---

Originally posted by teamDFL:

quote:

---

Originally posted by TurboJim:
If I did run my oil changes out to 9,000 miles and saw some sort of a failure in the oil filter I wouldn't blame the filter, I'd blame myself.

---

Even on a new Honda with 10,000 mile OCI?

---

I don't have a new Honda.... but my sister does so let me get back to you on that.

I agree with Filter Guy, it's time to move onto the next phase. We've seen the pictures, we've minced words, let's zero in on the answers.

I for one would like to know how much oil was in the engines when they brought it to lubeowner for service. Beyond that I'd like to see what oil analysis tells us. No not on every vehicle - just the ones he suspects he's going to find fault with. I'm sure by now he has a pretty good idea which ones those are going to be.

 

[labman]

Something funny is going on here. Most of us here are suspicious of Fram and clickers. Glad the ST number I am using is neither clicker or Ecore. Lubeowner is confirming our worst fears, but nobody has responded to my request for previous posts confirming the problem. Actually much of the speculation has been the clickers sticking open, not failing to open. For now, again, I think we need more information and fewer opinions. Maybe the best thing will be for Filter Guy to drop in on Lubeowner. Neglect, crappy product, bad technique, or something we haven't considered? Two good men, and maybe a few beers could go a long way towards clearing this up.

Next time I am at Jiffy Lube dumping oil, should I ask for a hundred filters to bring home and cut open?

 

[lubeowner]

wiswind,

The X2 does seem to be a sound design and a good product in my book. They are nothing like the orange cans of death. The synthetic media is backed with a wire mesh, they are very similar in design to the Fleetguard strataporefilters we use on Cummins and Powerstrokes diesels.

Sorry to all if I came off wrong in my last post, I was already p&**#d off about something else. I am uploading more pictures right now (brought some home to photograph) and they will be up tonight. I will try to caption all the info I can about each one. I can say that the pictures I am posting were all off of vehicles that are within manufacturers recs. for service, that I did check on. Remember, some manufacturers say 7500, or even 10,000, but most of the ones in the pics are 4-5K.

BTW, cut open two Napa golds today. Man, these are real good filters in every aspect. I have seen no problems with any so far. Also cut a few Motocraft, and as I said before these filters are extremely well put together, I am more impressed with them all the time, and from what you guys are saying they are not real expensive.

 

[Shannow]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Filter guy:
I think this thread has about run it course. There seems to be two camps. One is ready to blame the filter, then there's me..

and maybe a few others who would like more information.

So here is a proposal for Lubeowner as this is the second time he's cut open filters and posted pics:

I propose he do this again with more empirical information.

The next time he is prepared to cut open filters then add this information for each and every filter he takes off:

Filter Use Survey

1: Year, Make, Model, and engine type of the vehicle
2: Miles since last oil change.
3: Total miles on vehicle
4: Type of oil at last oil change and viscosity.
5: Was any oil added since last oil change or any other product added to the oil.
6: Any service work done on oil/fuel/air/cooling system since last oil change

Then for his lube crew;
7: Oil level on dipstick:
Within normal range, low, no reading.
8: Brand of filter element and part number.
[ You can type this out yourself and have your customers fill out the top portion. Either lubeowner or someone in here can work up a spreadsheet to load the data]

I will also offer up to 8 or 9 oil analysis sample kits for the worst offenders..low oil readings or high mileage since last oil change. This will give us some data to go by on those owners who do not perform routine maintenance. Of course oil analysis is best when done on the same engine with every oil change but we won't have that luxury.

And if he needs help in doing this, i'll offer my son to come over and help out as he lives in Lake Oswego Oregon and probably is within 30 minutes of his shop. My son knows little about oil filters so this will be an education for him and thanx to Office Depot laying of customer service managers nationwide, he's out of work and has the time.

Or if lubeowner wants to wait, i'll be in Oregon the last week of September, he can do the filter use survey at that time and we can cut the filters open together. I'll also bring a VHS tape or DVD of how Champ builds filters and the engineering/quality control that they do, if he'd like to have a look. And i'll explain what isn't on the video.

---

Sounds like the easiest solution here is for Champion to issue a set of operating instructions with the filter.

Use only oil type a, viscosity x, idle until sump temperature is y before moving off, regularly sample oil for contaminants.

Seriously, if these things (filters in general) are so finicky with regard to dipstick level then the OEMs would have had metal screens and centrifuges on every engine for ever.

(Or the '55 Chev 265 had the right filtration regime)

 

[427Z06]

Looks like virtually all of the Champion Lab's failures are with the clicker bypass valve. How long has the clicker bypass been around? I've bought at least a dozen Champion Labs filters (Mobil 1, K&N, SuperTech) for my applications in the past year and none of them have the clicker bypass valve. All have the coil spring type in either end.

From the data presented, looks to me like the ones with uneven pleats and a clicker bypass valves are the ones most likely to fail. Imagine one of these in a Honda with a 15,000 mile oil filter change interval.

Keep up the good work lubeowner, we appreciate it. Sure beats some of the corporate BS...errr...I mean PR we get around here.

 

[John W. Colby]

quote:

---

Originally posted by TurboJim:

quote:

---

Originally posted by John W. Colby:
I say if it falls apart, it is a cheap filter. It should hang together at LEAST 3 times the expected 3k miles because THAT is what "real life" customers do with their cars.

---

On a FRAM Extra Guard box: Recommended change interval for your oil and oil filter is 3,000 miles / 5,000 KM.

On a Super Tech box: Super Tech filters satisfy new car warranties when installed according to instructions and replaced at intervals recommended by vehicle and engine manufacturers.

I don't know of anyone personally who would not think it important to have their oil & filter changed on a regular basis.

I've cut open a few oil filters myself and never seen any concerns, even when I thought I was going to.

If I did run my oil changes out to 9,000 miles and saw some sort of a failure in the oil filter I wouldn't blame the filter, I'd blame myself.

---

Excuse me, but WHEN the oil was changed on my cars I took it to an oil change joint. I have NEVER read an oil filter box so how (exactly) would I know what it says? I have NEVER cut a filter open, nor even had the thought enter my head so how (exactly) would I ever know what one looked like inside?

Next point, my BRAND NEW Chevy Venture van (which as of this morning has a TRASKO bypass filter installed) has an oil change indicator that is pointing me to a 9k oil change interval. I haven't gotten there yet but I am at 70% remaining (and heading down) with 2500 miles on the oil. So CHEVROLET is telling me it is perfectly OK to go with a 9k OCI.

Third point, I know (of, not personally) probabably several millions of people who don't much think about oil changes. The people on this forums are very much the exception, NOT the average joe motorist. Thus whatever you would do if you ran your oil change out to 9k miles is of ABSOLUTELY NO RELEVANCE to the averages produced by Joe average motorist. Those cars are supposed to be protected by the oil filter installed. YOUR filter is never even used.

My grandma hasn't a clue (nor did I before joining this forum) about any of this crap. I expect(ed - definitely past tense) that a filter would not disintegrate. Seems I was wrong. It seems if you pay 3 bucks for a filter, you get what you pay for. UNDERSTANDING THAT, I will never again buy a 3 dollar filter. The $10 Mobil 1 filter apparently WILL stand up to any abuse it might encounter.

I say, if it falls apart at 4k miles it is a cheap filter, and that is FINE IF the person installing it on my cars tells me EXPLICITLY that if I don't change this cheapo filter in 3k miles it will disentegrate, giving me a chance to ask for a filter that won't disentegrate.

 

[John W. Colby]

quote:

---

Originally posted by teamDFL:

quote:

---

Originally posted by TurboJim:
If I did run my oil changes out to 9,000 miles and saw some sort of a failure in the oil filter I wouldn't blame the filter, I'd blame myself.

---

Even on a new Honda with 10,000 mile OCI?

---

THANKS for that.

Ooops the cheapo filters shouldn't be used except by the 3K OCI folks. It would be nice if they told us that.

 

[blueglide88]

Lubeowner.......keep up the good work. It takes time and effort to post those pics, and I love looking at them. Very informative. Anybody who does not, can change the chanel!

 

[John W. Colby]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Filter guy:
I think this thread has about run it course. There seems to be two camps. One is ready to blame the filter, then there's me..

and maybe a few others who would like more information.

snip

---

Filter guy... get a grip. the chance that he even knows any of that is vanishingly small, while the chance that he is going to spend the time doing all that stuff even if he did know it is also vanishingly small.

Take a hint...

"Of qty A of this brand cut open, B have failed"
"Of qty C of this other brand cut open, D have failed".

Can it be that the brands which don't fail are installed by people willing to pay more money and thus take better care of their car? Of course.

Can it be that the brands that cost more money are just better quality and won't fail under the same circumstances anyway? Of course.

Can it be that the manufacturers of the cheaper filters test that they won't fail if changed every 3k miles? Of course.

I actually believe that. They probably do not fail if changed every 3k miles. I also believe that manufacturers have a duty to provide more than the bare minimum requirements.

ALL the magazines and "mechanics corners" articles I have read for many years have told me that 3k oil changes are simply stupid. I am not a mechanic so I believed them and did not change my oil every 3k miles. Now I discover that (apparently) the manufacturers can just decide that "we'll make sure it lasts to 3k miles".

Would I buy their product knowing that? No I would not. Does my oil change shop tell me any of this? No they do not. Am I left holding the bag? Yes I am.

I would love more info, but I certainly do NOT expect LubeOwner to spend his time getting it for us. I am very thankful that he has posted what he finds, data or no data, so I can avoid the (few) brands that are failing.

So rant and rave if you want to about how we "have decided to blame the filters", but in the end, it is a specific (small) group of filters failing. And it's not like only 2% or 5% of the ones he cuts open are failing, a HUGE percentage of those brands are failing.

I think I will blame the filters thanks.

 

[teamDFL]

I think perhaps we can work a compromise, if lubeowner is willing. Since we have a lot of knowledgable people here, let us pick one filter number that Champ uses a clicker bypass on and ASK lubeowner if he would pull that filter number for a couple of days, or whatever it would take to accumulate a few samples from each brand. Then, he can cut them open and see. Unless you are totally nieve and believe that by luck of the draw the Champ units are the only filters that are subjected to 'tougher' ownership patterns, my feeling is that we will have a pretty good indication of if there is a problem. Not 100% scientific, but hopefully this represents a compromise insofar as that it does not require much extra work for lubeowner and it eliminates almost all variables.

So what do you say lubeonwer? You game? I think that it would benefit you as you could really have an apples-to-apples comparison to use as a basis for calling around and shopping for a new filter line, should you so choose.

Please give us some popular applications in your area, if you want to do this. Filter Guy, I would ask that you confirm which ones have clicker bypasses. Then, I think if members here (those genuinely interested in finding the truth) pick one from that list, no one can point fingers at bias. Then we sit here and all say thanks to lubeowner for sharing the info.

 

[Filter guy]

I'll break the news to one and all...Filters are designed to last beyond the engine manufacturers change interval recommendations besides meeting or exceeding specs.

It's that simple.

Now for all those who want to blame the filter for "failing"...can you tell me what the recommendations are on brakes or tires?
Is it possible, however unlikely that brakes or tires will wear out before the advertised length of time/mileage? And if so, could that possibly, however remote, be due to how the vehicle owner has used them?

I am just as curious as to why lubeowner is seeing what he is with the filters he cuts open.
But to outright lay the blame at the filter and say that is the only reason that the filter looks like it does..to me..is not looking at all the facts.

Lubeowner can't drop the pan and see how much sludge is in there to begin with. Which can effect the oil pressure regulating valves operation if it becomes stuck with sludge or contaminant from the oil pick up tube. There is a screen there but the holes are very open. And those who have read this forum enough know that over pressurization will cause exactly what lubeowner is seeing in his pics.

I will also post this as some in here could probably ascertain this on their own. Less expensive filters have less pleats than the more expensive filters. Less pleated filters will react earlier in the manner lubeowner sees when he cuts the filters open, when they've seen excess pressure, than those with more pleats.
But the root cause is the same..the excess pressure.

It takes in excess of about 100psid to rip pleats regardless of the pleat count. The more pleats the higher the psid it can be. But we're not talking about 500psid, it may be 150psid. your oil pump is generally running at 45psi. Now you do the math. How does a pump put up in excess of 100psi to rip pleats?

And while some have mentioned microglass media..or stratopore...that media also reacts to higher differential pressures. The difference is because it is wire backed synthetic media you can't see "pleat" tear. But under microscope the media has seperated and the efficiency is compromised just like ripped pleats are. Even Cummins/Fleetguard will tell you that.

 

[John W. Colby]

> Now for all those who want to blame the filter for "failing"...can you tell me what the recommendations are on brakes or tires?

Nope, and I don't need to. The brakes give a squeal as it approaches it's end of lifetime, the tires I can see. The filter is hidden from all, never seen, never thought about.

>Is it possible, however unlikely that brakes or tires will wear out before the advertised length of time/mileage? And if so, could that possibly, however remote, be due to how the vehicle owner has used them?

Of course, so what?

>But to outright lay the blame at the filter and say that is the only reason that the filter looks like it does..to me..is not looking at all the facts.

LOL, of course that is true, however when X(HIGH) percent of filter X is ripping that is a simple fact, easily observed. It is NOT meeting the requirement of the owner of the product. Say it however you will, the person who bought this product is NOT being protected, and there is no warning system to tell him so.

And finally there is this little problem of - if the oil pressure is so high why isn't the bypass kicking in? If that was the problem and the bypass opened then the pleats wouldn't rip. Hmmm... holes in the logic here?

Or maybe the filter is just SO cheap that the bypass doesn't work properly either?

I will leave it at this simple, inescapable fact. The product is NOT MEETING THE CUSTOMER REQUIREMENTS. The customer is NOT informed that it will not meet his requirements. That customer has no way of KNOWING that it will not meet his requirements.

I don't give a rats patuty whether you personally think that the customer "abused" the filter (which apparently you believe the case in all these pictures), the simple fact is that these customers bought a product that would not meet their requirement. They shouldn't be buying that product, and they shouldn't be sold that product. Lubeowner is absolutely correct to question selling that filter to that owner.

Personally, I question selling it to anyone except people frequenting this forum. Obviously you guys always change your oil every 2,980 miles so you will NEVER see these problems and it is a perfectly suitable filter for YOUR applications.

 

[Gary Allan]

quote:

---

let us pick one filter number that Champ uses a clicker bypass on and ASK lubeowner if he would pull that filter number for a couple of days, or whatever it would take to accumulate a few samples from each brand. Then, he can cut them open and see. Unless you are totally nieve and believe that by luck of the draw the Champ units are the only filters that are subjected to 'tougher' ownership patterns, my feeling is that we will have a pretty good indication of if there is a problem. Not 100% scientific, but hopefully this represents a compromise insofar as that it does not require much extra work for lubeowner and it eliminates almost all variables.

---

This would be a good test. It would also be easy to route these filters out of the mix. I think it's scientific ...just from a statistical stand point. "Of all vehicles using the Champ XXYYY filter during a 5 day sampling ...zzzz were found to have damage." type thing.

It would tend to push in one direction or the other.