CK-4 HDEO vs CJ-4 HDEO

[krismoriah72]

I have seen a few posts in other forums etc. where people are hoarding up the CJ-4 oils in fear that that CK-4 is not going to be as good for powersport/motorcycles etc..by looking at the numbers it appears that CK-4 has a higher TBN and more add pack? This is referencing the rotella 15w40 in this case. What is the fear of the CK-4??


http://www.pqiamerica.com/May 2013/rotella.htm
http://pqiadata.org/Shell_Rotella_T4_15W40_4192017.html


CJ-4 TBN- 9.4 Calcium 2321 Phosphorus 965 Zinc 1098 Boron 37

CK-4 TBN- 10.27 Calcium 2295 Phosphorus 1080 Zinc 1203 Boron 207

 

[UNC197]

Some of these new CK-4 oils are also rated API SN for gasoline engines which means the have lower Zinc and Phosphorus levels, around 800ppm. That's why some people are saying these newer oils provide less protection.

I just bought a gallon of Mobil Delvac 15w40 for my generator, it is rated SN.

http://pqiadata.org/Mobil_Delvac_15W40_4192017.html

 

[AirgunSavant]

I'm no HDEO expert-not even close
I see my Delo 400 SDE bottle here and I question how it will reduce wear by up to 50%
as it is noted on the front label- CK-4
Of course my new Delvac Super 1300 CK-4 makes no such claims.
Interesting.

 

[ArcticDriver]

Originally Posted By: krismoriah72

CJ-4 TBN- 9.4 Calcium 2321 Phosphorus 965 Zinc 1098 Boron 37

CK-4 TBN- 10.27 Calcium 2295 Phosphorus 1080 Zinc 1203 Boron 207



Here is a Shell document which indicates a TBN of 10 (no tenths provided) for CJ-4 rather than 9.4 that you found.

file:///Users/danielclark/Downloads/GPCDOC_GTDS_Shell_Rotella_T5_15W-40_(CJ-4)_(en)_TDS.pdf

This would put it more in line with the CK-4.

I am really happy to see you have introduced this topic. Hopefully some good facts will be presented.

 

[SZR48207]

Originally Posted By: CharlieJ
Some of these new CK-4 oils are also rated API SN for gasoline engines which means the have lower Zinc and Phosphorus levels, around 800ppm. That's why some people are saying these newer oils provide less protection.

I just bought a gallon of Mobil Delvac 15w40 for my generator, it is rated SN.

http://pqiadata.org/Mobil_Delvac_15W40_4192017.html


I agree with this.

If the oil you are buying is not dual rated for gas engine use, then CK4 is good news and nothing to worry about.

What isn't clear to me is if the mfrs are now trying to make their HDEOs dual rated when in the past they weren't. The API SN rating is what lowers those zddp levels.

On a related note, I need to research it more but the oils I see that are JASO MA2 rated also have lower zddp so that would be another thing to watch out for.

 

[Chris142]

Originally Posted By: AirgunSavant
I'm no HDEO expert-not even close
I see my Delo 400 SDE bottle here and I question how it will reduce wear by up to 50%.
easy. They compare it to city star oil.

 

[AirgunSavant]

Yeah that works

Originally Posted By: Chris142
Originally Posted By: AirgunSavant
I'm no HDEO expert-not even close
I see my Delo 400 SDE bottle here and I question how it will reduce wear by up to 50%.
easy. They compare it to city star oil.

 

[jeff78]

Originally Posted By: CharlieJ
Some of these new CK-4 oils are also rated API SN for gasoline engines which means the have lower Zinc and Phosphorus levels, around 800ppm. That's why some people are saying these newer oils provide less protection.


The API SN 800ppm limit on phosphorous only applies to oils of viscosity grade 30 and lower. The limit does not apply to xxW-40 oils.


Quote:
I just bought a gallon of Mobil Delvac 15w40 for my generator, it is rated SN.

http://pqiadata.org/Mobil_Delvac_15W40_4192017.html


This is a good example, because it's one in which the API SN limit for phosphorous does not apply due to the viscosity grade, but the oil formulator chose to limit it anyway. They could have used up to 1200ppm of phosphorous as the 'Standard' column indicates. That's the limit for CK-4.

 

[ArcticDriver]

Originally Posted By: jeff78
Originally Posted By: CharlieJ
Some of these new CK-4 oils are also rated API SN for gasoline engines which means the have lower Zinc and Phosphorus levels, around 800ppm. That's why some people are saying these newer oils provide less protection.


The API SN 800ppm limit on phosphorous only applies to oils of viscosity grade 30 and lower. The limit does not apply to xxW-40 oils.



This is a good example, because it's one in which the API SN limit for phosphorous does not apply due to the viscosity grade, but the oil formulator chose to limit it anyway. They could have used up to 1200ppm of phosphorous as the 'Standard' column indicates. That's the limit for CK-4.


I am not attempting to argue BUT this article quotes an industry representative saying something different about "Universal" oils (defined as being both C & S rated):

"“In order for a diesel engine oil to claim an ‘S’ category, it must now meet all of the gasoline category’s criteria, including the limit on phosphorous levels,” Negri continues. “Phosphorous has long demonstrated proven protective qualities versus ashless chemistries in diesel engines, but has also been known to shorten the life of automotive catalyst systems in gasoline engines. This means that diesel engine oil must be below 0.08% phosphorous to claim an ‘S’ category approval [the CJ-4 specification allows up to 0.12% phosphorous].”

The loophole that allows higher phosphorous levels from diesel engine oils when used in gasoline engines will be effectively closed. In practical terms, this will create a clear line in the sand between diesel-only formulations (“high phosphorous”) and universal oils (“low phosphorous”)."

Link:
http://www.fleetequipmentmag.com/demistifying-new-engine-oil-categories-compatibility-ck4-fa4/

 

[jeff78]

Originally Posted By: ArcticDriver

"“In order for a diesel engine oil to claim an ‘S’ category, it must now meet all of the gasoline category’s criteria, including the limit on phosphorous levels,” Negri continues. “Phosphorous has long demonstrated proven protective qualities versus ashless chemistries in diesel engines, but has also been known to shorten the life of automotive catalyst systems in gasoline engines. This means that diesel engine oil must be below 0.08% phosphorous to claim an ‘S’ category approval [the CJ-4 specification allows up to 0.12% phosphorous].”


I would say that maybe this representative wasn't fully aware that certain limits in API SN only applied to certain viscosity grades, or maybe got misquoted, or something got lost in translation during article publication.....who knows.

The API SN specification is here, you can see the differences in limits between viscosity grades yourself:

http://www.oilspecifications.org/articles/api-sn.php

If they were to force dual rated diesel oils to have a phosphorous limit of 800ppm even for xxW-40 oils, then they would be going beyond simply meeting all of the gasoline category's criteria.


At any rate, it might be best at this point to wait for VOA's of various CK-4 oils to show up before committing to them. Even if phosphorous limits aren't mandated to the lower 800ppm level, some CK-4 formulas may end up at that level voluntarily like the Delvac above.

 

[ArcticDriver]

Originally Posted By: jeff78
Originally Posted By: ArcticDriver

"“In order for a diesel engine oil to claim an ‘S’ category, it must now meet all of the gasoline category’s criteria, including the limit on phosphorous levels,” Negri continues. “Phosphorous has long demonstrated proven protective qualities versus ashless chemistries in diesel engines, but has also been known to shorten the life of automotive catalyst systems in gasoline engines. This means that diesel engine oil must be below 0.08% phosphorous to claim an ‘S’ category approval [the CJ-4 specification allows up to 0.12% phosphorous].”


I would say that maybe this representative wasn't fully aware that certain limits in API SN only applied to certain viscosity grades, or maybe got misquoted, or something got lost in translation during article publication.....who knows.

The API SN specification is here, you can see the differences in limits between viscosity grades yourself:

http://www.oilspecifications.org/articles/api-sn.php

If they were to force dual rated diesel oils to have a phosphorous limit of 800ppm even for xxW-40 oils, then they would be going beyond simply meeting all of the gasoline category's criteria.


At any rate, it might be best at this point to wait for VOA's of various CK-4 oils to show up before committing to them. Even if phosphorous limits aren't mandated to the lower 800ppm level, some CK-4 formulas may end up at that level voluntarily like the Delvac above.


Excellent post and my suspicion as well.

I appreciate the link and do you have one for CK-4 formulations? Like yourself, I am also waiting for VOAs but even more for used oil analysis !

Thanks

 

[ArcticDriver]

Originally Posted By: CharlieJ
Some of these new CK-4 oils are also rated API SN for gasoline engines which means the have lower Zinc and Phosphorus levels, around 800ppm. That's why some people are saying these newer oils provide less protection.

I just bought a gallon of Mobil Delvac 15w40 for my generator, it is rated SN.

http://pqiadata.org/Mobil_Delvac_15W40_4192017.html


Do you recall what the Phosphorus level was in this same Delvac 1300 in CJ-4 ?

800 is surprisingly low to me.