CI-4 spec

[moribundman]

Can anyone tell me some of the minimum specs that an oil needs to be approved as a CI-4 rated oil? I'm mostly interested in viscosities, minimum HTHS, and max ash.

Also, do you feel there is any disadvantage to running a CI-4 rated oil in a gas engine?

 

[moribundman]

Hmm, here's a picture of my engine with one valve cover removed: http://home.earthlink.net/~qoo/122k_miles.jpg
That was last year at about 122k miles. You think the diesel motor oil might break loose a considerable amount of deposits in this sludge monster?

[ January 29, 2004, 03:11 PM: Message edited by: moribundman ]

 

[heyjay]

Looks very clean. Remember that most American-made HD diesel motors have typical max ash specifications of 1.5%.

A friend of mine bought a new 1982 Ford F-150 2WD with a 302 and a 4spd stick. He ran Esso XD-3 15w40 summer and Esso XD-3 "Arctic" 0w30 winter, same as in his logging equipment.

When I bought my 1984 Ford, I was so sick and tired of that s*** Ford 2bbl carb that in 1985 I put in an Edelbrock 289 intake manifold and Holley 390 4bbl.

I ran Delvac 1 in my Ford and when I removed the cast iron Ford intake, it was spotless underneath. Not even a residue. If you're familiar with 302 V8's of that vintage, between cylinders 2-3 and 6-7 ran an exhaust crossover passage for the EGR.

Canadian market trucks were exempt and non-catalyst, so no EGR. However, that exhaust crossover in the intake was still there. Also no gallery shield underneath to keep oil off the hot crossover passage.

Usually, a 302 more than 1-2 years old would have heavy deposits on the crossover passage, like a brownish/blackish sludge 1-3 inches thick.

My friend with the 1982 Ford also decided to put in an Edelbrock manifold. When we took his cast iron manifold off, it was almost spotless. If you wiped your finger, you'd get a residue and that was all. His Ford had around 220,000km on it at the time.

I think for most cars/trucks, the better HTHS and much higher detergent levels in HD diesel oils really helps. Everything stays clean as a whistle.

That's an Audi motor? They usually recommend an xW-40, don't they? I'd think a HD diesel 15w40 oil would be ideal, same as Delvac 1 5W-40 would be ideal

Jerry

 

[Steve S]

The heavy duty oils are designed for the hardest useage a motor can get. That is commercial duty. I would also add that the heavy duty motor oils have high additive levels why the top of the line syn oils work well.

 

[moribundman]

Thanks for the info, guys. Yes, it's a 2.8 12 valve SOHC V6 Audi motor. Recommended viscosities include 5W-40 to 10W-60 and 20W-50. My motor sounds pretty horrible with Mobil 1 0W-40. I changed it today to the Mobil 1 5w-40, and all that terrible rattling engine noise at idle is gone. I'll make a post regarding this after I've driven the car a decent distance, and I'll also get a second opinion on the noise level.

 

[heyjay]

I run CI-4 rated Delvac 1 5W-40 in my HD equipment with Cummins engines. I wouldn't be afraid to run a CI-4 oil in a gas motor. Some folks would worry about the additive package "poisening" the catalytic converter.

All other things equal, a heavier xW-40 tends to lower oil consumption anyway, so you have much less oil vapor being put into the exhaust system.

The 2002 CI-4 spec was designed to deal with the newest HD diesel motors with EPA-mandated emissions controls, primarily EGR. A previous CH-4 spec covers how the pistons were redesigned to minimise blowby gasses (Top Grove moved much closer to the crown land).

The combination of ring land being much closer to the crown land, and EGR, tends to severely load the oil with soot. You need a lot more detergents and dispersants to keep the soot in control. Remember that soot is very abrasive.

The additives also deal with a big problem in Top Grove design, as weaker oils tend to break down into carbon, varnish, and sludge within the Top Grove. The first thing that happens is the grove fills up, then the Top Ring sticks. You get excessive blowby and excessive oil consumption.

Maximum Top Grove Fill allowed is somewhere around 14% to meet CI-4 specs.

The deposits in the Top Grove also act like an abrasive and wear off the crosshatch pattern on the cylinder liner. This is known as "bore polishing" and also leads to heavy oil consumption.

The appropriate tests are run to Cummins M-11EGR, Mack T-10, and Mack T-8E.

I guess one huge advantage to running a CI-4 oil in a new gas motor is that it would stay clean as a whistle. I would worry about putting the oil into an older motor, as the high detergent levels would tend to break the deposits loose.

Jerry

 

[therion]

quote:

---

Originally posted by moribundman:
Thanks for the info, guys. Yes, it's a 2.8 12 valve SOHC V6 Audi motor. Recommended viscosities include 5W-40 to 10W-60 and 20W-50. My motor sounds pretty horrible with Mobil 1 0W-40. I changed it today to the Mobil 1 5w-40, and all that terrible rattling engine noise at idle is gone. I'll make a post regarding this after I've driven the car a decent distance, and I'll also get a second opinion on the noise level.

---

There was a post of a guy with the same engine as you ran Mobil 1 5W-50 exclusively, and when he removed the valve cover and posted a pic it was spotless.

 

[moribundman]

Hmm, I hope you are not confusing me with me! I recently posted the same picture, which was taken after running the engine for almost 100k miles on Syntect 5W-50, in another thread.

 

[heyjay]

quote:

---

Originally posted by moribundman:
Thanks for the info, guys. Yes, it's a 2.8 12 valve SOHC V6 Audi motor. Recommended viscosities include 5W-40 to 10W-60 and 20W-50. My motor sounds pretty horrible with Mobil 1 0W-40. I changed it today to the Mobil 1 5w-40, and all that terrible rattling engine noise at idle is gone. I'll make a post regarding this after I've driven the car a decent distance, and I'll also get a second opinion on the noise level.

---

Hmm, those German motors are very tight and precise, yet they recommend heavier grades. Must know something we don't.

Are you using the "new" Mobil 1 Truck and SUV 5w40 Formula, or the Mobil Delvac 1 5W-40 in gallon jugs? Just curious. What did you pay for it??

If I'm allowed to use the "new" Mobil 1 5W-40 in my heavy equipment and keep warranty, that's 50 cents cheaper than my current pricing of Delvac 1 in 5 g pails.

Jerry

 

[moribundman]

I bought the Mobil 1 5W-40 (I refuse to call it "Truck & SUV"), because I can't get Mobil Delvac 1 5w40 anywhere over the counter here in the city. The new Mobil 1 5W-40 was $4.99 plus tax at Kragen, and I saw it only in 1 quart bottles. To go back to the smell of this oil, it smells "milder" than Mobil 1 0W-40. Not sure if it's really D1, because I've never smelled that.

I drove the car extensively today, and the engine is much more quiet. At idle, I can't hear the engine, and only when I touch the steering wheel I feel that the motor is running. Since the engine sounds so much better with et Mobil 1 5W-40, I'm having great hopes for this oil in my engine, and I will probably have a used oil analysis done after 5k miles.

 

[heyjay]

Well, I can't tell you what Delvac 1 or Mobil 1 "Truck and SUV" is supposed to smell like, as I have a very poor sense of smell.

I know when I ran Delvac 1 in my 1984 Ford F-150, and my 1990 Toyota 4Runner, the motors were almost silent. If you ran a regular 5w30 they would sound like marbles rattling around.

Jerry

 

[moribundman]

Yup, my Audi sounded horrible with Mobil 1 0W-40. Even if that's not causing any additional wear or damage, I can do without that noise. A smooth sounding engine is a happy engine.

 

[TooSlick]

For 0w-40/5w-40/10w-40 grades > 2.9 Cp

For 15w40 and 15w-50 grades > 3.7 Cp

Fuel efficiency will not be as good with a 5w-40 or 15w40 as it will be with a 0w-30/5w30/10w-30, ACEA A3/B4 rated, friction modified synthetic ....

Oil temps will be slightly higher with the thicker oil, however, "NVH" will be reduced as you have noticed ...


Tooslick
www.lubedealer.com/Dixie_Synthetics

 

[moribundman]

TooSlick, I seem to be sitting on my brain right now. What's "NVH"?
Also, can you tell me why the diesel-rated oils generally seem to lack (some) friction modifiers?

 

[blano]

quote:

---

What's "NVH"?

---

Noise, vibration and harshness.

 

[blano]

I thought I might add that one thing I noticed about CI-4 Delvac 1 is that it does not work as well in cold temps as the previous oil I was using (Petro-Can 5w40). Oil pressure seems to come up slower and the engine runs rougher when cold. The engine is a Cummins 5.9 and the ambiant temps when the conditions I have described be com apparent are between 0 and -10.
Did Mobil thicken this oil too much to pass CI-4 specs?

 

[moribundman]

Thanks, blano!

I think we need another thread in order to take a closer look at the connction between NVH and the oil used.

 

[heyjay]

quote:

---

Originally posted by blano:
I thought I might add that one thing I noticed about CI-4 Delvac 1 is that it does not work as well in cold temps as the previous oil I was using (Petro-Can 5w40). Oil pressure seems to come up slower and the engine runs rougher when cold. The engine is a Cummins 5.9 and the ambiant temps when the conditions I have described be com apparent are between 0 and -10.
Did Mobil thicken this oil too much to pass CI-4 specs?

---

I've noticed the same thing with Delvac 1 rated CI-4: it's MUCH thicker in cold temps. Probably has to do with the additive package to control the soot.

Esso XD-3 0w30 and Esso XD-3 0W-40 are both HD diesel motor oils that meet CI-4, including the Cummins CES specs. They appear to be far more appropriate for cold temps, especially colder than -20 C.

Cummins, CAT, and others approve their use in cold temps.

I priced at my local Esso Bulk plant and it's $4.25 a litre.

Jerry