Chiropractors neck manipulation.....safe?

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Their treatment generally carries a holistic undercurrent and most are very up to date with alternative medical treatments.

Alternative medicine is by definition unproven. Once it's proven, it becomes... medicine.

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
The basic premise of their treatment is undeniable: cut off nerve energy and whatever is connected to that nerve will wither and atrophy.

Correct. What's deniable is that those problems are caused by mis-aligned bones (which somehow are not so severe as to cause extensive damage and pain), and that they can correct those misalignments by hand.

The reason it's deniable is that there's no evidence for it. All they know is that when they do their "manipulations," people feel better. Fine. But as we've seen, there are many possible reasons for that.


Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
I wouldn't try to treat my allergies or high blood pressure there but I would go in a minute if my back or neck hurt!

Then to some extent you must know what I'm talking about. If you truly believed the principles of chiropractic, you wouldn't be saying this.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: Schmoe
AMA lobbyist????

Chiropractic lobbyist?


Originally Posted By: Schmoe
I don't believe that just because they are not "M.D.'s", they are not qualified to treat.

Never said that.


Originally Posted By: Schmoe
They too go to school, not just a bachelor's degree in biology or something like that.

So do people who study Rei Ki, which involves the idea that you can treat an affliction by NOT touching someone. So do homeopaths, who operate on the premise that the more you dilute medicine, the better it works. So did Kent Hovind, who honestly believes that both of our polar ice caps were created by a single ice meteor.

Years spend in school is meaningless if what is taught is bunk.


Originally Posted By: Schmoe
I also believe the "real" doctors are exactly why our health care problems are so massive.

Okay. And this makes chiropractic better how?


Originally Posted By: Schmoe
I don't simply agree with them on a lot of issues whereas they just throw pills at you.

On what basis? If they're "just throwing pills at you," then either the problem is mind-numbingly simple or you're seeing a bad doctor.

If I start off with an orthopedic surgeon....it would be either MRI or Cat Scan, operate then drugs to allieviate swelling, pain, etc. etc. then come back and see him in about two weeks.

Strange... I've never seen someone indict a professional for being thorough. But okay.

Have you asked an orthopedic surgeon about your case?



Basically, everything you're saying comes down to this:

1. What MDs do is complicated.
2. You don't understand it.
3. Chiropractic is easy to understand.
4. Therefore, chiropractic is better.

I won't say you're not entitled to your opinion, and I totally understand where you're coming from. I just wish you'd look at things a bit more critically.

 

[Benzadmiral]

I've been to a chiropractor, the same one, several times over the years. In 1996 I woke up with a pinched nerve in my shoulder/neck. The guy I went to loosened things up with head and a hand-held massage machine, then cracked my neck. A couple of visits, and the pain went away.

I went back to him again in 2006 when I woke up with a severe neck stiffness, and again he solved it after several visits.

When in 2008 a similar neck/shoulder pain returned, I was ready to go back, but he must have retired or picked up stakes for better location (i.e., other than Loozyana), because he wasn't in the phone book or on the 'Net. And nobody I know could recommend a good chiropractor. So I ended up going to an MD instead, who among other advice told me to get a TempurPedic pillow to support my head and neck at night. Seems to work. . . .

 

[Schmoe]

Seems to me that your the only one picking apart whatever has been said.....been here long enough to know how all this works. Whatever....
Benz....that tempurpedic pillow really works. My chiro suggested it. At first, I didn't want to spend 57 bucks, but after figuring that it might just help, I got one. Holy Cow Batman.....sleep so much better. Mine has two "humps", one bigger than the other. Sometimes I'll use the larger one, but none the less, it has really helped. I don't go anywhere without it if traveling.

 

[Bill in Utah]

I've deleted one post due to MANY occurrences of bypassing the censor and attacking other members.

Any more and I'll have to lock this up.

Bill

 

[kb01]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8


I have seen so many friends suffer in agony before during and after back surgeries that I regard it as nearly quackery.



When I injured my back, I vaguely remember my family doctor saying the stats for lower back surgery were roughly:

1/3rd make a complete recovery
1/3rd show either no or a slight improvement
1/3rd are worse off as a result of surgery

 

[Schmoe]

....ouch....terrible odds.

 

[CROWNVIC4LIFE]

I had a Chiropractor for over 25 years who used only the Palmer Method when he worked on you...He passed away several years ago [may he RIP] and I have not found another Chiropractor that does the Palmer Method...I was like a new person when I left his office...I only needed him a few times a year when my back acted up...No other method works for me.

I have searched within 150 miles of my location and come up empty for a Chiropractor who uses the Palmer Method...If anyone knows one within 100 miles of Miami please let me know...Thanks.

 

[XS650]

Originally Posted By: kb01
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8


I have seen so many friends suffer in agony before during and after back surgeries that I regard it as nearly quackery.



When I injured my back, I vaguely remember my family doctor saying the stats for lower back surgery were roughly:

1/3rd make a complete recovery
1/3rd show either no or a slight improvement
1/3rd are worse off as a result of surgery


When I was in the 8th grade in 1957 I had a back that went out when I ran. The MD solution was back surgery that would have laid me up for about a year with months in a body cast with roughly the odds you gave.

My mother took me to our small town Chiropractor and after a few weeks of once or twice a week adjustments, it never bothered me again. I also know people who have done poorly at the hands of quacks.

The important things with a Chiropractor (other than knowing his profession)is that he know his limits and not try to sell you what he can't provide. I would also look for a Chiropractor that has an affiliation with a regular hospital, medical plan or MD.

 

[Schmoe]

....or perhaps within your insurance network.

 

[BigNick]

M.D.'s (and D.O.'s) practice "evidence-based" medicine.

Eg. You give pills to decrease blood pressure, after there was statistically significant evidence in large studies that proved the pills work at reducing blood pressure, AND ...you do this because even larger studies statistically have proven that reducing blood pressure prolongs life by reducing the chances of stroke, kidney failure etc etc.

There is NO study that has ever proved that any Chiro Manipulations help solve/cure a particular problem! (Except for some studies that show it helps lower back pain of unknown origin, BUT... the studies also showed that exercise through physio or even Massage therapy or Doctor's visits also help! .. Chiro was NOT better.. just statistically significant to have showed improvement)

I like stats, facts and evidence, hence I would never recommend a family member to go to a chiropractor first hand.

I agree.. it does seem to help some people in some cases.. but statistically has never been proven to be beneficial overall! If you are the 1 in 1000 that it helps, then by all means.. keep it up!

Again.. I'll say.. the very few people that swear by chiropractics are a very vocal bunch and hence skew the overall image of the profession. Ask a few other friends, and you'd be surprised how many have actually visited a chiropractor and how many "will never go back" haha

 

[asiancivicmaniac]

For what it's worth, my mom had a herniated disc that put her in excruciating pain. The family doctor prescribed her pain meds (Vioxx?) and it didn't help any. Went to a chiropractor and slowly got better. Except her job puts a lot of stress on her body so it hasn't really ever healed.

 

[Schmoe]

...based on statistics....which is what? A bunch of numbers crunched and manipulated to a prove a certain point? Regardless, it's not an exact science, but akin to your blood pressure medicine, and this has nothing to do with chiro, what about the studies about people with high blood pressure that changed their diets, started exercising, reduced salt intake, etc. etc? What about studies that show the after affects of taking said medication? There are numerous ways to manipulate data in any way you want it to. The AMA is a very powerful organization.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: Schmoe
...based on statistics....which is what?

I would strongly recommend looking into what it actually takes for a drug to be allowed on the market.


Originally Posted By: Schmoe
Regardless, it's not an exact science

The practice may not seem that way.

The information on which the practice is based definitely is a science.


Originally Posted By: Schmoe
what about the studies about people with high blood pressure that changed their diets, started exercising, reduced salt intake, etc. etc? What about studies that show the after affects of taking said medication?

What's your point?

 

[PandaBear]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: Schmoe
...based on statistics....which is what?

I would strongly recommend looking into what it actually takes for a drug to be allowed on the market.


+1

Not only do you have to do the experiment in dish with different concentration, but you also have to test on mice, monkeys, HUMAN, and compare how effective it is against existing drugs and its toxicity. Out of hundreds of molecules / proteins they start looking at, probably only 1-2 makes it till the end with approval and 1 will be recalled due to toxicity (Vioxx anyone?).

Second to mineral and natural resource extraction or semiconductor manufacturing, I think biotech is pretty close to a nationalized industry in terms of cost and risks.

 

[Schmoe]

My point is that you can probably get the same type of satisfying statistical results from habit/lifestyle changes as you can with drugs, but we are lead to believe that you take this drug, and you'll be good as new, which is not right. If the medical associations really want to make a difference, then they could spend their money on changing the mental mindset on healthier lifestyles to give the exact same results. However, there is no money in it for them. Granted, not all ailments can be cured by simply changing bad habits, but a lot can.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: Schmoe
My point is that you can probably get the same type of satisfying statistical results from habit/lifestyle changes as you can with drugs

In many cases, yes. But not in the majority of cases (let alone all of them), and certainly not as easily. That's the whole point of a drug.


Originally Posted By: Schmoe
but we are lead to believe that you take this drug, and you'll be good as new, which is not right.

Sounds like you've received some pretty horrible advice if that's the case. The doctors I've been to have always UNDERestimated the effectiveness of the drugs they've prescribed me.


Originally Posted By: Schmoe
If the medical associations really want to make a difference, then they could spend their money on changing the mental mindset on healthier lifestyles to give the exact same results.

Don't paint them all with the same brush. Of course big pharma profits from failing to eradicate illness, but pretty much everyone else -- especially doctors -- would LOVE to see a sudden outbreak of healthy lifestyles, and a LOT of institutions are pushing for it in various ways.

 

[BigNick]

I used the drug as an example! For your information... When you go to the doc and it is discovered you have high blood pressure.. STANDARD practice is to try lifestyle modifications for a minimum of 3 months, before any drug is prescribed.

Maybe you didn't understand my point. Everything has to be PROVEN before globally accepted in medicine.. hence... EVIDENCE-BASED Medicine...

Eg 2. Studies show, fixing a hernia, surgically, is significant, statistically proven, to lead to better outcomes, less morbidity and less mortality... THAT is why surgeons fix hernias, NOT because it's there for them to do. Groups of people, who had hernias that were not fixed surgically, had worse outcomes, increased morbidity and increased mortality... Hence, the evidence is there that the best way to deal with a hernia is to have it surgically fixed!

Chiropractics: There has NEVER been a study which proves.. Neck Manipulation (for example), is significantly better than placebo or other methods. And there have been MANY studies over the last 100 years of the existence of the practice. Again... it may help SOME people... but overall.. it has NEVER been shown to be effective in the treatment of ANY muskuloskeletal problems/issues (except for the small link to lower back pain as I mentioned before, but that lower back pain is relieved by a great variety of methods). NEVER been shown in actual studies to have better outcomes than the controlled groups... NEVER! That's pretty significant if you ask me! haha

 

[Schmoe]

If everything is so proven as you say, then way in the world are their lawsuits galore suing pharma companies for side affects from prescribed medicines? Why are their so many recalls on pharma and over the counter drugs that were FDA approved lately? Even kids medicine. Your telling me the system is not broken? The only thing proven is exactly what I said above, it's based on statistical analysis, some win and some will lose, but not everybody will win and hope like crazy it's not you or one of your family members.
I don't see how hernia's are related to chiro's.....
If chiro's are not proven to fix anything, then why are there so many of them and why do so many people see them? Why are major health insurance companies finally starting to pay for patient treatments whereas in the past, they never did. Blue Cross and Blue Shield for prime example. Even though they weren't covered in the past, somehow they thrived and from the sheer volume of success that they have, major insurance compaines had no choice but to accept their success and include them in their coverage as an option to patients. You'd think after all these years the AMA would have found a way to disprove chiro's, but they haven't so obviously something they do is working.
D.C's are licensed in all 50 states.
Doctors of Chiropractic are primary health care providers.
Over the last 100 years, chiropractic has enjoyed increasingly higher acceptance by the public after many years of growing pains . This has occurred because of a number of reasons. There have been more and more research studies that have proven that chiropractic is the most helpful and cost-effective treatment for a variety of conditions. And, more importantly, patients have seen for themselves that chiropractic, in many cases, simply helps for many conditions! Many patients like the fact that they have an alternative to the use of drugs. As society becomes more and more aware of the contraindications and serious side effects of medication, patients are now more willing to try non-medical forms of treatment for their health issues.
If you want studys and proof, I'd suggest reading some of this:

http://www.docwong.com/health/studies/index.htm

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: Schmoe
If everything is so proven as you say

"Based on science" doesn't mean "proven" in the sense that you mean. It means it's backed up by a LOT of people doing a LOT of research to try to make sure that the practitioners have the best possible information at any given time.


Originally Posted By: Schmoe
, then way in the world are their lawsuits galore suing pharma companies for side affects from prescribed medicines? Why are their so many recalls on pharma and over the counter drugs that were FDA approved lately? Even kids medicine.

Because people make mistakes, and they (usually) are held accountable.


Originally Posted By: Schmoe
Your telling me the system is not broken?

That doesn't seem to have been the intention. Could you point out where you think that statement was made?


Originally Posted By: Schmoe
If chiro's are not proven to fix anything, then why are there so many of them and why do so many people see them?

You must know that what people pay for has nothing to do with what works.


Originally Posted By: Schmoe
Why are major health insurance companies finally starting to pay for patient treatments whereas in the past, they never did.

Again, people want it. That doesn't imply that it works.

Now, if insurance companies started offering discounts for people who see chiropractors regularly for preventive reasons, that might say something.


Originally Posted By: Schmoe
You'd think after all these years the AMA would have found a way to disprove chiro's, but they haven't

Burden of proof rests with the party making the claim. It's up to chiropractors to prove that their practice works. Until then, we can take it or leave it.

Current research says that chiropractic is no better than placebo. This means they have not proven themselves.


Quote:
Doctors of Chiropractic are primary health care providers.
Over the last 100 years, chiropractic has enjoyed increasingly higher acceptance by the public after many years of growing pains . This has occurred because of a number of reasons. There have been more and more research studies that have proven that chiropractic is the most helpful and cost-effective treatment for a variety of conditions. And, more importantly, patients have seen for themselves that chiropractic, in many cases, simply helps for many conditions! Many patients like the fact that they have an alternative to the use of drugs. As society becomes more and more aware of the contraindications and serious side effects of medication, patients are now more willing to try non-medical forms of treatment for their health issues.

I would recommend citing your sources rather than pasting them contiguously with your own words. Otherwise it looks like plagiarism.

EDIT: Here's the link: http://www.chiroweb.net/chiropractic/alternative_health.html


Originally Posted By: Schmoe
If you want studys and proof, I'd suggest reading some of this:

http://www.docwong.com/health/studies/index.htm

Every single link gives a 404 error. Do you have another source?