Chinese front-end parts

[fdcg27]

Agree with all of the above wrt replacement parts.
Never buy cheap parts of any kind unless you like trying to install stuff that doesn't quite fit, and you want to do the job more than once.
Now, China does make big planes.
Back in the late 'seventies, a Chinese company actually built and flew the Y-10, an aircraft that looked very much like a B707, of which the Chinese had a few.
The Chinese denied that the Y-10 was simply a reverse engineered 707, but even if it was, it would take significant expertise to actually build a clone. Not really a garage project.
There are a handful of MD80s flying with a US carrier right now that were built in China. MD no doubt agreed to this arrangement to facilitate sales to Chinese airlines.
Airbus has entered into a similar arrangement, and Chinese built A320s will soon take to the skies.
Finally, I read an interesting book review in "The Economist", and will read the book itself when the library gets it.
The author's premise was that Chinese products were often of poor quality because the Chinese companies would bid their contract manufacturing services too low to cover variable cost.
The fatory managers were then left to find ways in which they could cut corners in producing product, in order to survive and prosper.
Interesting take, and totally contrary to the relationship between Japanese firms and their supliers.

 

[chromatin]

The MD case happened in '80s. MD couldn't sustain the competition with Boeing. So MD had to seek extra markets to survive and of course China was the best one at the time, and even now, if MD is still there. '80s was also the honeymoon of US and China and Uncle Sam only OKed but even sweetened the deal. An assembly plant was built in China to build MD80. Some of them came to the US market eventually.

The business model mentioned in the The Economist is exactly correct. The competition among Chinese suppliers are (at least were) so fierce that the managers decide that's the only way to go (it's stupid, I have to agree). The US (and Japanese etc) companies know it very well and take huge advantage of that. For example, most of the time the contracts are non-binding. Those companies keep pushing for lower price even during the contract periods and constantly threaten to go somewhere else. Why do they do it this way? Huge profits and low risks. When anything happens, there's always one big fat red country called China to blame and suddenly [censored] becomes victim.

That's why China doesn't care much for the huge layoff in those suppliers in these two years or so. US media made it a huge deal but if you can read Chinese, you will see people don't really care. China basically decided to change the business model and image. So big money goes into infrastructure and assembly workers suddenly become construction workers. There are many insane high speed rail projects now bejing built in China and a lot of them will drive airline business to corner. I think Bejing to Shanghai and Wuhan to Guangzhou will be finished in two years. The distances are both about 700 miles. What's the travel time? Less than 4 hours...Of course, no country can't live on buidling roads forever but the business model will be change for sure. Let's see how it looks like 5 or 10 years from now.


Originally Posted By: fdcg27
There are a handful of MD80s flying with a US carrier right now that were built in China. MD no doubt agreed to this arrangement to facilitate sales to Chinese airlines.
Airbus has entered into a similar arrangement, and Chinese built A320s will soon take to the skies.
Finally, I read an interesting book review in "The Economist", and will read the book itself when the library gets it.
The author's premise was that Chinese products were often of poor quality because the Chinese companies would bid their contract manufacturing services too low to cover variable cost.
The fatory managers were then left to find ways in which they could cut corners in producing product, in order to survive and prosper.
Interesting take, and totally contrary to the relationship between Japanese firms and their supliers.

 

[rpn453]

Originally Posted By: AcuraTech
White box parts do exist. They sell em' at the independent auto parts stores for CHEAP. No label other than the name of the part and maybe a part number. No brand name, no address, nothing. Then when it falls apart, there's no one to sue!


It's amazing how little concern some have for the safety of themselves and others.

 

[mechtech2]

South Korea makes some pretty good stuff.
It is the new Japan, sort of.

 

[PandaBear]

Originally Posted By: mechtech2
South Korea makes some pretty good stuff.
It is the new Japan, sort of.


Yes, they learned from Japan and when Japan gets too expensive, turn the table around.

What I noticed in the semiconductor industry is that when Japan decide that it is too expensive to keep multiple suppliers that compete with each other in the same industry. After they drove many Europe/US manufactures out of the market, and consolidate into a couple monopolies that will remain, the Korean came in and hire all the laid off engineers to build up their business.

In the end? The Korean semiconductor market share are now 2x to 4x larger than the equivalent Japanese.

 

[EricF]

Chinese manufacturing isn't the issue for "cheap" stuff.
It's how much the company contracting with a Chinese company wants to pay for whatever they need built.

I've had some tools made in China that are tougher than anything I've ever used.

It all depends on who wants to pay for the quality.

 

[Vizzy]

Problem IS with China in many ways, the worst being the total culture of bribery and corruption. It is often the case that unless someone gets paid off in China (company president, managers, ect) that they won't do business with you. Many Westerners have been shocked by this commonplace reality business is conducted in a very different way there.

 

[The Critic]

Originally Posted By: Vizzy
Problem IS with China in many ways, the worst being the total culture of bribery and corruption. It is often the case that unless someone gets paid off in China (company president, managers, ect) that they won't do business with you. Many Westerners have been shocked by this commonplace reality business is conducted in a very different way there.


Agreed, 100%.

 

[GMBoy]

Originally Posted By: The Critic
Originally Posted By: Vizzy
Problem IS with China in many ways, the worst being the total culture of bribery and corruption. It is often the case that unless someone gets paid off in China (company president, managers, ect) that they won't do business with you. Many Westerners have been shocked by this commonplace reality business is conducted in a very different way there.


Agreed, 100%.



Also agreed. I first learned of these tactics from a friend of mine working over in China in a GM plant. I alwsys wondered why GM would set up shop over there knowing that the communist gov't can walk in any day and take the factory and everything (inc. trade secrets) in it.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Trav
I always try to use Moog or OEM.Last year i tried to save someone a few bucks by installing Mevotech at their request.
The Lower control arms bolted in ok but when we tried to align it there was no way to bring it into specs.

R&R with Moog and it was almost right on the money before going on the rack.Never again,Moog or OEM or i pass the job.I felt bad for the guy,in these times some folks are hurting bad so i ate the labor,these cheap parts cost a whole lot more than quality ones in the long run for both the mechanic and the customer.


The replacement parts were Moog. My choice as well.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: rpn453
Originally Posted By: AcuraTech
White box parts do exist. They sell em' at the independent auto parts stores for CHEAP. No label other than the name of the part and maybe a part number. No brand name, no address, nothing. Then when it falls apart, there's no one to sue!


It's amazing how little concern some have for the safety of themselves and others.


I've seen these parts a million times as well. And assume those were the parts used in this instance. A buddy of mine worked in an autoparts store for years, and I've seen all kinds of garbage that he's called me up and told me I had to come look at!

 

[chromatin]

This is funny, lol. I am not saying what you said can't be true. But let's follow your logic.

1, Commy can take over GM China.
2, If GM knows 1, GM would not set up a plant out there.
3, GM is not that stupid. GM for sure knows 1.

But GM still set up plants in China, which can only mean that 1 can't happen. As a matter of fact, it won't happen if you know a little bit more about the business in China now. Everybody cares about money only. If GM can bring in money, who cares?! And if GM can make money in China (certainly), who cares?! Granted, bribery and corruption is everywhere in China. But boy, think about it in this way. This is another type (more bloody for sure) of lobbying. GM for sure has got used to that.


Originally Posted By: GMBoy

Also agreed. I first learned of these tactics from a friend of mine working over in China in a GM plant. I alwsys wondered why GM would set up shop over there knowing that the communist gov't can walk in any day and take the factory and everything (inc. trade secrets) in it.

 

[PandaBear]

Originally Posted By: chromatin
This is funny, lol. I am not saying what you said can't be true. But let's follow your logic.

1, Commy can take over GM China.
2, If GM knows 1, GM would not set up a plant out there.
3, GM is not that stupid. GM for sure knows 1.

But GM still set up plants in China, which can only mean that 1 can't happen. As a matter of fact, it won't happen if you know a little bit more about the business in China now. Everybody cares about money only. If GM can bring in money, who cares?! And if GM can make money in China (certainly), who cares?! Granted, bribery and corruption is everywhere in China. But boy, think about it in this way. This is another type (more bloody for sure) of lobbying. GM for sure has got used to that.



True to some extend. Businesses do not bring the most mission critical part of their technologies to China when they manufacture there. Sure, they can steal your assembly methods but all the important R&D are kept here to prevent there.

In semiconductor industry, for example, the critical tech are done elsewhere, and only production and testing methods are sent to China. If they were to steal, they can only setup a low cost manufacturing base rather than catching up and become ahead.

Japan is smart about this at their Thailand, Malaysia, and Philippine operations by not doing any R&D there. So after 20 years of out souring, these nations are still behind and do not have any companies that can rival.

China wants to prevent that, that's why the major investment must be a partnership between the foreign and chinese.

On the foreigner's perspective, they'd rather win their competitors for a few years in cost than falling behind and keep the latest technologies. Imagine if Ford outsourced but let Chinese steal their technology, but GM does not. In 10 years GM could lose their shirt in cost and the chinese still have technology stolen from Ford. Either way you lose, so might as well take advantage of the winning side.

 

[Meo]

I avoid chineseum stuff at all costs.

I will even buy used stuff to avoid new chineseum stuff.

 

[jcwit]

Sorry to say in todays world "Good Luck".

 

[Popinski]

Originally Posted By: chromatin
Not trying to start a political dicussion here

, but how many of you know the official name of Taiwan is "Republic of China" and the official map of RoC (still in use in TW technically speaking) include both parts. I am just amazed that the US media can make almost every American thinks Taiwan has no relationship with China. Granted, I hate the Chinese gov's attitute towards ROC, or Taiwan, if you want to call it that way.


Originally Posted By: PandaBear
Originally Posted By: jcwit
Tell me just how china is able to make the digital cameras, even some on the high end stuff if they are unable to do quality control?


They buy pre-qualified components from suppliers from another country?

Just like a lot of electronics are made in China, but the critical components are still made in nations like US, Japan, Korea, Taiwan, Singapore, Europe, etc.

BTW, most of the R&D for digital camera, including the manufacturing processes, are in either Japan, US, or Taiwan.


Technology in china, compared with Taiwan is like night and day. Taiwanese computer and motherboard technology is excellent. I believe the Japanese, South Koreans and the Taiwanese are the most high-tech in Asia. For cars and electronics, I'd go with Japanese,South Korean,USA. For computer hardware, definitely Taiwanese.

 

[rpn453]

Originally Posted By: Popinski
Technology in china, compared with Taiwan is like night and day. Taiwanese computer and motherboard technology is excellent. I believe the Japanese, South Koreans and the Taiwanese are the most high-tech in Asia. For cars and electronics, I'd go with Japanese,South Korean,USA. For computer hardware, definitely Taiwanese.


It was less than ten years ago that I was working summers as a bike mechanic and everything from Taiwan was garbage. Now, I own excellent tools from Taiwan (Mastercraft Professional, among others) and most of the junk comes from China.

I'm not opposed to buying respected brand name items that are made in China, though I'd be willing to pay extra to see "Made in Japan/Canada/USA/Germany" when it comes to anything mechanical.

 

[OVERKILL]

ASUS is a Taiwanese company, as are the vast majority of motherboard manufacturers. They have been making top-notch stuff since the early 90's.

ASUS recently setup a Chinese manufacturing facility. The quality of products coming from this facility are on-par with those produced in the Taiwanese one. My two 4890's were manufactured in China.

Good products can be manufactured in China. It is the money and time invested to do so that is lacking in the cases of many known-brands. In the cases of the whitebox junk, like this thread is about.... There is no "brand", it is an inferior quality clone of a part, meant to be high-margin for the seller and a "good enough for now" fit to get the vehicle out the door.

 

[nthach]

Originally Posted By: jcwit
Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
I know it's not proper to generalize...But Chinese parts generally suck!


Sorry to say just like the computor you're typing on. Or the TV you watch, or the shoes you're wearing, or some of the tools in you're tool box, this can go on forever.

Made in China can also mean assembled in China with globally-sourced parts. - I have a Apple MacBook that was assembled either by Asus or Quanta in China - the processor and core logic was made in a Intel fab in the US and assembled in Malaysia or the Philippines. The LCD is made by Samsung in Korea, the optical drive is made by Panasonic in Japan or China, and the hard drive is made in Thailand with its heads and media made in Fremont at a Western Digital fab.

The Chinese can made good products if they wanted too - we've got Chinese-made cabinets made out of maple in our house that are probably better made than the particle board junk at Home Depot. It's the companies in China with greedy management and a corrupt government that spoils it for them. Remember the melamine-contaminated grain gluten in pet food and the baby formula scandals? The Japanese also had a Chinese scare too when people got killed eating dumplings from China that got contaminated with methamidphos.

Back on topic, I use only OEM/OES from WorldPac or Moog. I usually avoid "value" brands, as paying less IMO is false economy.