Charging to get home

[y_p_w]

For sure, EVs are not for every use case; nothing is. I would be curious to plan your trip via the Tesla GPS.
I realize I live in a Silicon Valley bubble. There's tons of Superchargers in my area; I never use them.
Our Mid Range can make the 180+ mile round trip if I charge to 95%. Here's the route; you can see Los Gatos in the South Bay and Petaluma up north of the City. I charged at Novato and then flew home on a beautiful ride playing Southern Rock on the Premium Stereo.
View attachment 177256

Obviously road trips outside of the Bay Area are the real test. Densely populated cities (especially San Francisco) are also a real test since the parking spaces that might be used for EVs are also at a premium and a lot of the non-Tesla charging is in pay parking garages.

I remember mapping out the chargers on our trip up the North Coast. Santa Rosa was the last possibility until Ukiah (which strangely enough has two). One is at a city government parking lot, so they likely offered their site to Tesla. I didn't use Tesla's trip planning tool, but I looked at it today and it recommended some oddball charging stops, including 5 minutes at that city parking lot's Supercharger and then 30 minutes in Laytonville - in the parking lot for Anna's Asian Palace, which sounds vaguely like it's something other than a Chinese restaurant.

https://www.yelp.com/biz/annas-asian-palace-laytonville​

"Charge your Tesla, do not eat the food."​

"The Tesla charging stations are the only reason why they're still in business."​

"Tesla owners don't go this place!!"​

"Went here while charging our Tesla and it was a mistake."​

But here's the plan. Looks reasonable, but I think it's about 160 miles from Berkeley to Laytonville, so it doesn't make much sense to have a five minute pitstop in Ukiah.

Another thing is that often the recommended stops are somewhat random. We used the other Supercharger in Ukiah, and that was a decent location in a Raley's parking lot where walking distance included Harbor Freight (might be interesting), Dollar Tree, In-N-Out, and McDonald's across the street. It was kind of weird looking at Google Maps street view, where they still had a 2011 image where I saw a Shell station and a Carl's Jr/Green Burrito, but the May 2023 image shows the Carl's Jr. closed and surrounded by a chain link fence, and the Shell station is now Speedway. And really depressing because 2011 shows a traditional McDonald's, but 2023 it's turned into a box shaped building.

 

[JHZR2]

Unforeseen traffic jams happen all the time. It’s not only a possible scenario, it’s a very likely one.

Leave my house, heading to Richmond, Google says 96 minutes to destination. Hit the Hampton Roads Bridge Tunnel just after an accident, Google, updating just after I’ve experienced the slowdown, says 126 minutes due to a 30 minute slow down.

I’ve seen pop-up traffic delay for an hour or more. The in car route planning software cannot predict the future any better than anyone else, and there are no chargers on a bridge or in a tunnel.

You cut it close with an EV, in those circumstances, and you had better turn off the air conditioning, or you will not make it. Frankly, I can’t think of anything worse than sitting in 95° heat with 90+ percent humidity, stuck in the Hampton roads Bridge Tunnel, having to shut off the AC because you don’t have the juice.

“Charging just enough to get home” is foolish in many locations. Including mine.

Yeah but the AC use thought exercise here is really a silly one if you think about it.

If you have a fully charged battery, it’s moot because the battery is charged.
If you have a low charge in the battery, it’s the analog of a near empty fuel tank.

Ive had concerns in traffic jams on I-95 coming into NYC and being low on diesel - woukd I find a station in time?

Ive had times where I was low on fuel sitting in traffic going into the Baltimore tunnel. Turning off the AC in an ICE car has the same effect - lower load and thus less fuel burn.

Both of these were poor planning on my part. Which can be done in an ICE or EV.

Its just the amount of time wasted to truly rectify it…

 

[y_p_w]

Yesterday I found a list of power plants closing in the US by state. The number of coal and gas power plants closing in the next 3-5 years is incredible. My question is where are we going to get the make up power from? Don’t tell me wind and solar.

Coal isn't likely coming back since I think it costs more. Some gas fired plants are shutting down because they're older, inefficient plants. Much of the capacity is being replaced with newer, more efficient gas plants.

https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=55439​

Coal. Substantial U.S. coal-fired capacity has retired over the past decade, and a record 14.9 GW was retired in 2015. Annual coal retirements averaged 11.0 GW a year from 2015 to 2020, decreased to 5.6 GW in 2021, and then increased to 11.5 GW in 2022. This year, power plant owners and operators plan to retire 8.9 GW of coal-fired capacity, which is 4.5% of the total coal-fired capacity at the start of the year.​

​

Most coal-fired power plants operating in the United States were built in the 1970s and 1980s. As these aging coal-fired power plants compete with a growing number of highly efficient, modern natural gas-fired power plants and low-cost renewables, such as wind and solar, more of these coal-fired power plants are being retired.​

** ** ** **​

Natural gas. This year, 6.2 GW of U.S. natural gas-fired capacity is scheduled to retire, representing 1.3% of the operating natural gas fleet as of January. Most of the retiring natural gas capacity is made up of older steam and combustion turbine units, which produce electricity less efficiently than many of the newer combined-cycle natural gas units.​

​

Three aging natural gas-fired plants in California (Alamitos, Huntington Beach, and Redondo Beach), with a combined 2.2 GW of capacity, are scheduled to retire by the end of this year. These plants were originally slated to retire in 2020; they were granted a three-year extension to maintain grid reliability.​

 

[Trav]

I said EVs are being offered because of tightening fuel economy standards. It’s easier than meeting these requirements

Not quite making it with that explanation. Hybrids can meet the numbers yet if it has an ICE engine it will be banned.

 

[y_p_w]

Yeah but the AC use thought exercise here is really a silly one if you think about it.

If you have a fully charged battery, it’s moot because the battery is charged.
If you have a low charge in the battery, it’s the analog of a near empty fuel tank.

Ive had concerns in traffic jams on I-95 coming into NYC and being low on diesel - woukd I find a station in time?

Ive had times where I was low on fuel sitting in traffic going into the Baltimore tunnel. Turning off the AC in an ICE car has the same effect - lower load and thus less fuel burn.

Both of these were poor planning on my part. Which can be done in an ICE or EV.

Its just the amount of time wasted to truly rectify it…

I've had some really weird cases with a gasoline-powered car where I was looking at super high gas prices and decided against getting gas. Totally lucky that I made it. The most egregious was when I was at Sequoia/Kings Canyon National Park and parts of Sequoia National Forest. It was low but I was hoping to get it to Fresno (for dinner) where I previously filled up at about $3.20/gallon. There were places to get gas near the park, but I chose against one near my campground. That was expensive, but not that so much that I did buy gas there once. I bypassed another gas station because they didn't have premium. Then I found this place that had antique gravity fed pumps, but premium was something like $6 a gallon, where they charged a lot more just for the privilege of using those pumps. I might have considered adding a gallon or two just for peace of mind but they had a 5 gallon minimum sale. The light went on the way into Fresno and I might have even driven by the first gas station I saw on the way back hoping to get to this one gas station I'd visited before. I'm thinking I was darn close to running out of gas. However, one of the things that helped was that it was a lot of downhill on the way from the park down to Fresno.

 

[LDB]

I always started planning my next fuel purchase at 1/2 full, whether the 300 gallon capacity W900 or my personal vehicle. Thankfully I'm not afflicted with the mental defect that requires using more than 7/8 tank before considering buying fuel. I pity the families of those so afflicted.

 

[Nick1994]

Unforeseen traffic jams happen all the time. It’s not only a possible scenario, it’s a very likely one.

Leave my house, heading to Richmond, Google says 96 minutes to destination. Hit the Hampton Roads Bridge Tunnel just after an accident, Google, updating just after I’ve experienced the slowdown, says 126 minutes due to a 30 minute slow down.

I’ve seen pop-up traffic delay for an hour or more. The in car route planning software cannot predict the future any better than anyone else, and there are no chargers on a bridge or in a tunnel.

You cut it close with an EV, in those circumstances, and you had better turn off the air conditioning, or you will not make it. Frankly, I can’t think of anything worse than sitting in 95° heat with 90+ percent humidity, stuck in the Hampton roads Bridge Tunnel, having to shut off the AC because you don’t have the juice.

“Charging just enough to get home” is foolish in many locations. Including mine.

I think this sounds like a great use case of an electric car. A little looking online says you could run the A/C on a Tesla for roughly 24 hours, say 4% battery consumption per hour. Crawling on a bridge in an electric car in traffic is only using the energy needed to move the vehicle, there is no idling power consumption like a combustion engine unless you're rolling the windows up and down continuously and flashing your high beams with the wipers on.

Those who drive an electric car typically don't run the car to the bottom of the battery range. And even if they did, the bridge would have to be at the very end of the commute to even be remotely a problem. Say you're traveling 50 miles and you have 50 miles (20%) of range or so. You run into this bridge 1/2 way through your commute and disaster strikes, a traffic jam. You'll have 25 miles (10%) of range at the beginning of the bridge, use 3.5 miles (1.5%) of range driving across the bridge, plus the extra 4% per hour of additional A/C use. At the end of the traffic jam you've got 5% or so of battery and you can hop on a supercharger for a few minutes to finish to your destination.

All of this comes down to the extremes of "what-if" situations that can be applied to everything in life. What if you're driving across this bridge and get a flat tire 1/2 way across in the traffic jam, only to find your spare tire's valve stem broke and you've got no way to get to your destination in time before a tow truck can rescue you.

All hypothetical highly unlikely situations. I say unlikely because since Jeff has had this Model 3 for 5-6 years, I don't think he's ever run out of battery on a bridge yet.

 

[demarpaint]

What you say is true. But that's today.

Five years ago there were no chargers anywhere. Five years from now they'll be more common. Ten years from now charging facilities of various kinds will be everywhere. At some point there will be fewer gas stations. Times change.

Think about cell phones. Twenty years ago they were unusual and expensive. Today, I (a Luddite, if there ever was one) have one. By the way, where is your nearest pay phone?

Exactly. In the meantime I can wait, I see no need to rush out and buy an EV. While I wait I can continue to enjoy the convenience of my ICE vehicles. In the case of cell phones, I didn't rush out to buy one, the prices were high, the plans sucked, and the service sucked. That might sound familiar to some.............

 

[jhs914]

I don't understand why anyone needs to get worked up over it. No one is forcing you to buy one. No one is overtly banning ICE vehicles...

Think again.

https://calmatters.org/environment/2022/08/electric-cars-california-to-phase-out-gas-cars/

"California will revolutionize the car market by ending sales of new gas cars within 12 years, forcing car buyers to switch to electric cars."
https://www.reuters.com/business/au...r-sees-2035-ev-mandate-sweet-spot-2022-09-20/

"California's choice of 2035 as the deadline to end gasoline-only new car sales was the "sweet spot" that will sharply cut emissions but was also realistic for the industry, the head of the state's clean air regulator said on Tuesday."

 

[demarpaint]

Think again.

https://calmatters.org/environment/2022/08/electric-cars-california-to-phase-out-gas-cars/

"California will revolutionize the car market by ending sales of new gas cars within 12 years, forcing car buyers to switch to electric cars."
https://www.reuters.com/business/au...r-sees-2035-ev-mandate-sweet-spot-2022-09-20/

"California's choice of 2035 as the deadline to end gasoline-only new car sales was the "sweet spot" that will sharply cut emissions but was also realistic for the industry, the head of the state's clean air regulator said on Tuesday."

It sure seems like it quacks like a duck. Maybe they should rethink it, they have similar problems like Texas is experiencing now. Get the grid ready to handle the electric demand in 2023, before thinking about killing ICE in 2035.

Texas rolling blackouts

 

[andrew_j]

I think people disconnect that charging away from home is the rarer event with an EV.

I will go out on a limb and say EV owners spend less time overall waiting at “filling stations” than ICE do in an entire year. Yes the times they use a charging station away from home are longer it just does not happen as often.

 

[SHOZ]

On a ICE engine the gas mileage gets better as the engine wears in. On batteries they start losing range immediately then need replaced before the car is worn out.

 

[Astro14]

I think this sounds like a great use case of an electric car. A little looking online says you could run the A/C on a Tesla for roughly 24 hours, say 4% battery consumption per hour. Crawling on a bridge in an electric car in traffic is only using the energy needed to move the vehicle, there is no idling power consumption like a combustion engine unless you're rolling the windows up and down continuously and flashing your high beams with the wipers on.

Those who drive an electric car typically don't run the car to the bottom of the battery range. And even if they did, the bridge would have to be at the very end of the commute to even be remotely a problem. Say you're traveling 50 miles and you have 50 miles (20%) of range or so. You run into this bridge 1/2 way through your commute and disaster strikes, a traffic jam. You'll have 25 miles (10%) of range at the beginning of the bridge, use 3.5 miles (1.5%) of range driving across the bridge, plus the extra 4% per hour of additional A/C use. At the end of the traffic jam you've got 5% or so of battery and you can hop on a supercharger for a few minutes to finish to your destination.

All of this comes down to the extremes of "what-if" situations that can be applied to everything in life. What if you're driving across this bridge and get a flat tire 1/2 way across in the traffic jam, only to find your spare tire's valve stem broke and you've got no way to get to your destination in time before a tow truck can rescue you.

All hypothetical highly unlikely situations. I say unlikely because since Jeff has had this Model 3 for 5-6 years, I don't think he's ever run out of battery on a bridge yet.

If you go back to the original post, my objection is to the number of miles that @JeffKeryk charged to get home. 48 miles. Not enough.

As @The Critic pointed out, in his post with the supercharger locations, that isn’t enough margin to deal with traffic in my area.

Also, as I pointed out - my Tesla - owning neighbors know this, because they know the area, they know the traffic, and they don’t charge like @JeffKeryk did.

When heading up the Eastern Shore, they leave with 100% charge. When coming back, they stop, and hit 80% at the last station to have a large margin when they hit that 17 mile Bay Bridge Tunnel. Your math, and your margin, are predicated on chargers that don’t exist around here.

I am most certainly not making up extreme hypotheticals. I’m telling you how it works for Tesla (or any EV) in my area.

I am not anti EV.

But I am pro-reality when it comes to SOC planning. Fuel and range management, are, after all, my daily occupation.

 

[Torrid]

Not quite making it with that explanation. Hybrids can meet the numbers yet if it has an ICE engine it will be banned.

I’m referring to federal fuel economy standards, not California’s antics. I didn’t say anything against hybrids. EVs just qualify for a bigger number and drag the average up considerably.

 

[JHZR2]

I think people disconnect that charging away from home is the rarer event with an EV.

I will go out on a limb and say EV owners spend less time overall waiting at “filling stations” than ICE do in an entire year. Yes the times they use a charging station away from home are longer it just does not happen as often.

That’s use case dependent.

Take two cases for me - around town and a trip to dc.

Around town the EV thing works. Charge at home with a high power unit, keep SOC high in a bounded case, operate no worries. I’ll note that this works with a PHEV too…

Then comes the day I go to dc. First I must remember to charge, fully. That includes adjusting the slider in the Tesla that tells it to stop at less than 100%. An issue? No. Hard? No. But I do have to remember to do it. And then I drive a distance that is more than half the range. Not enough to need to charge when there, but enough to have to charge on the trip. Something my hybrid doesn’t need. I don’t even think about fuel stops with my hybrid, but I’d be thinking about charging stops the whole time.

Call a spade a spade - I’d probably want to stop to get something or use the restroom. But it’s still a big inconvenience compared to the time spent getting gas.

PHEV is the way.

 

[Astro14]

I’ve said this in other posts, but I’ll bring it back up - we almost bought a plug in hybrid Volvo two months ago. We were deep into numbers with the sales team after driving it. I’m fairly well known at the local dealer (check my sig, it’ll make sense).

The ability to drive around town and run all of our errands, or commute to work, on the electric charge is perfect. Love it.

But when we head out on a long road trip, particularly across those bridges and tunnels, then we have a full tank of gasoline and zero concerns whether it’s heading out or coming home.

The plug-in hybrid is a more expensive powertrain than the pure battery, I think. At least in the Volvo lineup it is the most expensive option.

And there are communities, and climates, and infrastructure, where the electric is wonderful. I just don’t happen to live there.

Please allow me to add, that we took my Mercedes S600 up to Richmond this weekend to look at real estate. We left the house at 80% fuel, anticipating the Hampton roads Bridge Tunnel, which, of course, had an unexpected, not-shown-on-Google-until-it-happened, slow down between the HRBT and the supercharger station up on the peninsula. Lost 40 minutes stuck in traffic, and critically, unable to exit the highway because of where the slowdown happened, as the nearest exit was past the slowdown.

On our way home, we filled the car up again, despite being at roughly 50% fuel while up in Richmond. We took a different bridge and tunnel on the return, but we hit the Hampton Roads traffic area at about 80% fuel.

whether we are talking state of charge, or fuel tank level, I live in an area where more careful planning is absolutely required. I cannot charge, or refuel, to “just enough to get home”, levels.

That is foolish.

 

[demarpaint]

And there are communities, and climates, and infrastructure, where the electric is wonderful. I just don’t happen to live there.

You're in good company. It looks like the people in Texas don't live there either. I know for a fact here on Long Island I don't live in an area where electric is wonderful either, along with my good Bitog Buddy in MA, and many others across the nation. Good luck with the rumored ICE demise in 2035.

 

[DwightFrye]

Everything has to be taken in context for the individual driver.

For example, where I live 91 octane is currently $5.89 per gallon. That gets me around 27 MPG on the freeway. If I am unfortunate enough to buy gas at a convenience store, I often have to wait in line behind the kind of people who don't have bank accounts so they are buying money orders to pay their rent or the guy who is buying a couple of microwave burritos and an energy drink and then takes 2 minutes to figure out how to pay with his debit card. If I can get out of there in less than 10 minutes I am lucky. I always pay cash for gas as there are too many issues with credit card skimmers on the pumps. So I have to deal face to face with a clerk or attendant.

In that scenario, if I could spend $5 and go 48 miles and only take 10 minutes for a charge I would come out way ahead of spending almost $6 to go about half the distance. Perhaps this is why Commiefornia is the largest market for EV's. For those of you in states with $3.50 gas and 40+ MPG vehicles an EV may seem like a frivolous purchase.

 

[SC Maintenance]

For sure, EVs are not for every use case; nothing is. I would be curious to plan your trip via the Tesla GPS.
I realize I live in a Silicon Valley bubble. There's tons of Superchargers in my area; I never use them.
Our Mid Range can make the 180+ mile round trip if I charge to 95%. Here's the route; you can see Los Gatos in the South Bay and Petaluma up north of the City. I charged at Novato and then flew home on a beautiful ride playing Southern Rock on the Premium Stereo.
View attachment 177256

I am certainly not the use case for your example - they don't build factories near cities and my destination can change in one phone call. My criteria is sort of off topic and irrelevant, so building a map to route that may change long before arrive is a fools errand.

My point - comment to another poster - was regarding you needing a new type of plan ahead thinking. Trust me, I plan ahead for everything, power out, ice storm, another toilet paper shortage . My point was why add one more thing to an already busy life that adds minimal value. If you want to drive your Tesla across the country enjoy the ride. I prefer to fill my tank at any po dunk station and be done with the thinking part, so I can think about more important things, like whats for lunch. KISS.

 

[JohnnyG]

The rate is often variable with time of use. They generally want to encourage users to charge at the least busy times, but for someone on a road trip charging at the peak rate might not be avoidable. But for someone on a road trip it might make sense to wake up early and maybe get breakfast while it's charging.

Sometimes it can be free. Tesla's Destination Charging program is primarily for businesses hoping to attract customers where the charging is at no cost to the user. However, it's impossible to predict how many will be used and there needs to be a backup plan if they're not available.

Which again is kind of bass ackwards. Shouldn't the best time to charge be when the sun is shining the most and the electricity is generated by solar?
That seems to me to be the "greenest" option.