Caution: Rant!

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Just a few points I wanted to make about how people are arguing over the Toyota thing. I'm not debating the facts of the issue here; just talking about the way people are talking about it.


1. When someone says you're wrong, that doesn't always mean they're defending your enemy.

A lot of people seem to have this attitude of "if you're not with ME, you're against US." That seems a bit arrogant, to be honest. If someone disagrees with you or what you're saying, that doesn't mean they're taking sides against your favorite team. They could even be on your side in general. It's just that they don't like what you're doing in that moment.

"You're wrong" and "they're right" are two VERY different things. If you're bashing on Toyota and someone says your argument against is full of holes, that doesn't mean they're defending Toyota. It just means they find YOUR arguments fallacious.


2. Fixing problems as they are found is NOT the same thing as changing the story.

Toyota found one problem (the floor mats) and they issued a recall. Then they found another problem (the pedal assemblies) and they issued a recall for that. So many people, regrettably even on BITOG, have used this to accuse Toyota of trying to sweep "THE REAL PROBLEM" under the rug. Even if the root cause does turn out to be somewhere else, the fact remains that the floor mats and the pedals were troublesome and needed to be fixed.

Yes, Toyota did sweep things under the rug. We have plenty of other evidence for that. Let's focus on that stuff (which is FAR worse IMO) instead of skewering them for the recalls they did issue.


3. Complaints are allegations. Nothing more.

So many people are parroting the NHTSA's number of unintended acceleration complaints as if it's an exact quantification of the problem. It's not. It's just the number of people who have called the NHTSA to complain. We all know we can't count on people to pay attention while driving. We also know we can't count on people to be honest about their own mistakes. How can we count on them to give an accurate account of how their cars operate? These things need to be investigated. Until the NHTSA, or Toyota, or someone makes an objective assessment, the number of complaints is pretty much meaningless.


4. Attaching numbers to your argument doesn't make you more right.

The numbers have to mean what you think they mean. If they don't, then you are wrong. Period. Your opponents don't necessarily have to cite counter-numbers. If they can show that your numbers are incorrect or irrelevant, that's enough.


/rant

Now, let's see how many accusations of Toyota/import fanboyism I get. I'm not even going to argue, just count.
35.gif
 
you do realize bandaids do come off. This is what has happened as the fix has not fixed them.

I suspect this will be locked soon
 
Originally Posted By: DieselTech
you do realize bandaids do come off. This is what has happened as the fix has not fixed them.

I suspect this will be locked soon


Bandaide on a gunshot wound?
 
Originally Posted By: Panzerman
Wonder how much the Ford Recall on tires over the rollovers got you riled up. So where is your Toyota tatoo at? I can only guess.

The way you prove my point by missing it is absolutely sublime.
 
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: Panzerman
Wonder how much the Ford Recall on tires over the rollovers got you riled up. So where is your Toyota tatoo at? I can only guess.

The way you prove my point by missing it is absolutely sublime.


I think it may be that the way you missed the sarcasm is absolutely sublime.
 
I do semi agree with you that it's essentially become mass hysteria regarding Toyota's run away acceleration problems, but I keenly remember other large and widely publicized recall campaigns, mainly the Ford roll-over problem. Was the hysteria legitimate in all those other circumstances as well? Probably not.

But you have to admit that the way Toyota has handled this issue is, well, corporate decision making at it's best! (a case study, really)
 
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Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
But you have to admit that the way Toyota has handled this issue is, well, corporate decision making at it's best! (a case study, really)


Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
When will companies and politicians ever learn?


It's not the offense, it's the cover up that will get you every time.


+1 x2.
 
Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
When will companies and politicians ever learn?


It's not the offense, it's the cover up that will get you every time.


What I take from it is that they must get away with covering things up enough to warrant the risk and warrant the suffering from the small percentage of times you get caught.

It's sorta like asking "When will they ever learn?" when talking about drug smugglers getting busted at the U.S. border. They get away with it 99% of the time. The occasional bust only serves to help them identify and adapt to law enforcement's methods.

The only thing they're "learning" is that we're dumb enough, apathetic enough and lazy enough that they know they can (almost certainly, and almost always) get away with it.
 
So are people waking up early and skipping work to goof off on BITOG and make sure their side of the argument is more aggressively defended?

In the grand scheme of things this defect will be figured out. The armchair engineers here have pretty much got their votes in; we'll see what ultimately works out.
 
Originally Posted By: uc50ic4more
Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
When will companies and politicians ever learn?


It's not the offense, it's the cover up that will get you every time.


What I take from it is that they must get away with covering things up enough to warrant the risk and warrant the suffering from the small percentage of times you get caught.

It's sorta like asking "When will they ever learn?" when talking about drug smugglers getting busted at the U.S. border. They get away with it 99% of the time. The occasional bust only serves to help them identify and adapt to law enforcement's methods.

The only thing they're "learning" is that we're dumb enough, apathetic enough and lazy enough that they know they can (almost certainly, and almost always) get away with it.

I understood something different: that we can forgive a company for selling a few bad apples, but we will eviscerate them for a con job.
 
Exactly, one doesn't have to be an engineer(armchair or real) to understand when they've been lied to.

Mistakes can and will happen, even ones that unforunately costs lives. But when it's dicovered that you've been lying to people and covering your tracks for years. Then there should be a price to be paid, a dear one at that.
 
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: Panzerman
Wonder how much the Ford Recall on tires over the rollovers got you riled up. So where is your Toyota tatoo at? I can only guess.

The way you prove my point by missing it is absolutely sublime.


What is your point? Yotota messed in their bed -- so what?

If you like them, it makes the buyer's market better for you, how is that bad? When Toyotas are hot, then they are more expensive, why would you (if you like them) want that?

For years I have bought vehicles I like especially if others don't like them -- makes better deals for me.

Don't waste time defending them, just scoop up the good deals and enjoy them.
 
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That's two so far, not counting the joking one. Thought there'd be more in 17 posts. Guess things have calmed down a bit, eh?
 
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
That's two so far, not counting the joking one. Thought there'd be more in 17 posts. Guess things have calmed down a bit, eh?


Perhaps. But for me I don't care one lick about Toyota so I haven't even been following the drama.
 
Toyota will pay dearly for any failure to have been forthcoming with information.
Forget NHTSA.
Wait until both houses of Congress finally get finished with the company, including the Toyodas themselves.
Also, wait until the subpoenas start flying in American civil actions. All of the secrets will be revealed, and we may even see criminal charges.
I can imagine that both the federal conspriracy statute and RICO might pay a role in any federal criminal actions involving decision makers at the company.
 
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