Catalytic Converters?

[Oilgal]

Does anyone know the federal standards involving catalytic converters? I am getting contradictory information from different shops.

Here is what several different exhaust shops told me this afternoon.

"By Federal Law, ... all cats must now be stainless, and they install no other kind. They also cost a LOT more now." - hmmm

"By Federal Law, ... all aftermarket cats must be stainless, and they cost a lot more now." - once again hmmm

"We have aluminized cats by "Imco", and all of them are highflow."

"All cats are now highflow and they sell no ther kind." - hmmm


So does anybody know, if any of this is true, and is Imco any good? I have never heard of Imco cats. Why doesn't anyone sell Magnaflow CarSound, or Catco hiflo, cats anymore?


Apparently a lot has changed in the last two years regarding catalytic converters.

 

[CBDFrontier06]

Rules for Replacing Converters
In 1986, the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency issued new guidelines for the construction, efficiency and installation of aftermarket catalytic converters. All CleanAir converters listed in this catalog have been designed, tested and manufactured to meet this policy.

In addition, CleanAir converter listed in this catalog is appropriate for use under the current requirements of the California Air Resources Board (C.A.R.B.).
E.P.A. guidelines state that replacement converters may be installed only in the following situations:

1. The vehicle is missing a converter
2. A state or local inspection program has determined that the existing converter needs replacement
3. Vehicles manufactured prior to 1996 must have more than 50,000 miles, and a legitimate need for replacement must be established and documented
4. In cases of OBD Il-equipped vehicles (1996 and later), the O.E. manufacturer's 8-year/80,000-mile warranty must have expired and a legitimate need for replacement must be established and documented.
Please note that Federal law prohibits removal or replacement of a properly functioning O.E. converter.

When replacement of the converter is appropriate (as outlined above), the E.P.A. further requires that:

1. It be installed in the same location as the original
2. It be the same type as the original (i.e., two-way, three-way, three-way plus air/three-way plus oxidation)
3. It be the proper model for the vehicle application as determined and specified by the manufacturer
4. It be properly connected to any existing air injection components on the vehicle
5. It be installed with any other required converter for a particular application
6. It be accompanied by a warranty information card to be completed by the installer.

More Detail: http://www.epa.gov/otaq/cert/factshts/catcvrts.pdf

 

[eljefino]

I would tend to believe the "all are highflow" statement. Apparantly the aftermarket cats have less platinum to them than OE ones, and are just barely good enough from an emissions standpoint.

This was confirmed when I took my dead OE cat in for metal salvage and was pleasantly suprised what it was worth. They looked for OE markings and were going to gyp me if they didn't have them.

If you feel like you're getting taken for a ride, there are plenty of online sources like discountconvertordirect.com and several others findable with a google search. Even if you aren't doing the work it's neat to find the wholesale price of what you need, and if you can get a bolt-in or have to settle for a weld-in.

I'm pretty sure my replacement cat had a federally mandated 5 yr/ 50k mile warranty. That might indirectly explain why it's stainless by law.

 

[MrCritical]

I see no special replacement part warranty on GM converters in their policies/procedures manual. That would make the warranty 12/12.

 

[Gary Allan]

8/80 for a long time now. It's not a battery.

 

[Kestas]

Gary is correct. The reason you don't find it covered in the GM policies/procedures manual is that cat warranty coverage is mandated by the federal government for 8/80 on cars 1995 and newer.

It seems odd to me that the federal government would make a statement saying "all converters must be made of stainless steel". What if the manufacturer decided to use titanium or Inconel to make converters? Both materials are superior to stainless steel for converter applications, and such a mandate would preclude a manufacturer from providing a superior product. I don't trust what those shops told you.

Both titanium and Inconel are used in certain critical exhaust applications. Aluminized steel is a horrible choice for converter shells. Even 409 stainless steel isn't all that great.

 

[JHZR2]

I assume that you are looking to replace the cat? I don knw anything about "high performance" converters, but I can say, from firsthand experience, that if you are subject to emissions testing, get an OEM cat converter.

I made the mistake to get an aftermarket, thinking it would be good enough to let me pass... but I was wrong. A NEW cat is only as good as a barely passing OE cat. THey are designed with such low catalytic activity that they get you to barely pass, nothing more.

I highly suggest that if you need a converter, and plan to keep the vehicle, that you get the right one.

Likely my experience is the reason why there are new rules. Which are right, I can't say.

JMH

 

[alreadygone]

JHZR2 would be right if cost is no object. OE's are superior, but when the GM part for a 99 S10(for example) is $895., or the local muff shop (me) will install a aftermarket for $150. most folks don't think twice.

By the way IMCO (International Muffler Company) is now one of the largest mfgrs. of all things exhaust in the world with plants in US and Canada (Tex. based). Don't believe they inport anything from China. They cater to the professional installer, instead of the performance magazine crowd.

Bob

 

[Oilgal]

Thanks for your help you guys. BITOGers are totally great.

All of the shops around here have raised their prices, and the man who did my exhaust system, was shut down and fined I hear. All the "good shops", that I knew about, are long gone now. Lots of car people here don't even run with cats. Hey at least I am not one those types. The shops remaining, that I spoke with, all seemed predatory and hungry now. Not long ago, I got a Magnaflow 'car sound' installed, for $100. Apparently they are really clamping down.

If I need one, I will definitely get one online, and I will have my friend Bill put it on.

Thanks again you guys. You are the best.

 

[Oilgal]

Thank you JHZR2 and alreadygone also. You guys slipped in while I was writing. I will take your good advice into account.


On second thought.

I think I may get that OEM IMCO cat I was offered today. He had the best price too. I thought it was likely a 'get what you pay for' thing until now. Does $160 installed for that sound right to you guys?

 

[bdcardinal]

what throws a wrench into the works is that in CA, all OBD2 cats must be OEM or CARB approved.

 

[Oilgal]

I bet they start testing all vehicles, in all 50 States, one of these days real soon. I bet they also begin rigorously enforcing that everywhere also.

Here in Indiana, there is no smog testing, and yet they just shut down a whole bunch of exhaust shops that were not strictly adhering to the law.

 

[javacontour]

It depends. Where I live in IL we have testing, and they have dropped testing of vehicles older than 1996.

So now, only cars that are OBD-II compliant are tested, and they are not sniffed, only scanned by the computer to see if they have passed all tests and are not pending a code.

So I expect testing soon to just be a scan of your computer, not a sniff of the tailpipe.

 

[Oilgal]

You may be right, and yet then again government can be quite capricious.

 

[mechtech2]

The Feds have some regs, but State law is the one I would be concerned with.

 

[MrCritical]

My bad. I understood he was talking about "replacement" converters, not the factory installed ones. The original does have 8/80 coverage.

 

[Oilgal]

After finally getting some sleep, I now realize, that my cat is just fine. I was very sleep deprived yesterday, and I took something Gary said all wrong and went into a tizzy. We are getting ready for a long road trip. The van will be loaded with some real weight, and so I have been a bit anxious to have it roadworthy. My bad. It all worked out nicely though, because I am learning about cats now, thanks to all of you great BITOGers.

 

[Kestas]

While we're on the subject, it seems from the posts that replacement cats are substantially subpar, and it stands to reason that a used cat may be the best solution. Yet it is illegal for salvage yards to sell cats. What is the best route for a BITOGer to replace a cat? There's none on eBay. Perhaps a private sale where a car is being parted out, i.e., craigslist?

 

[MrCritical]

The only thing about used cats is the one you are installing may be worse than the one you already have. Same with used ECM's, ect.

The question is how much trouble is your time worth? After replacing the used part about twice, it gets a little old.

 

[alreadygone]

BROWN RECYCLING

The only EPA certified business I know of that flow and function tests used direct fit used converters. Claim to have something like 50,000 part #'s in stock and ready to ship.

Think most of the negative feedback here for aftrmarket stems from NOT repairing the root problem that caused the original cat to go bad. Then new aftermarket unit just barely will pass sniffer,,,then lo and behold next year it's poisoned too!

Bob