Castrol Syntec

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Well, … what about the Carbon and Hydrogen molecules in the PAO? They weren’t synthesized. If one defines the “synthetic” label too narrowly, even PAO’s need not apply. Are we going force PAO producers to make their C/H molecules in a nuclear reactor from electrons/protons/neutrons so the C/H molecules are manmade and “synthetic” too?

And what about any non-manmade molecules that don’t get converted in the PAO process? If they’re making PAO from ethylene and a few molecules of ethylene aren’t converted and still exist in the finished Mobil 1 product, are we going to allow that product to be called 100% synthetic, or full synthetic? Or force Grp IV producers to remove any of those remaining ethylene molecules before the synthetic label can be applied. And then there is the issue of the additives, Ca, Mg ….etc.

One could debate the semantics of “synthetic” all day, but at some point you have to draw a line on what’s reasonable given the information and circumstances. There may not be one final definitive answer like in mathematics where 2+2=4. The courts have to make a judgement call (like in common law) on what a reasonable man would expect or decide. What it really comes down to is -- were the consumer interests well served by calling Grp III synthetics? And the answer is emphatically yes. It was a “reasonable” decision because of the excellent performance of Grp III’s. If the performance of GRp III’s weren’t anywhere near “traditional” synthetic motor oil, then I think consumers would have cause for concern.
 
G-Man II,

Thanks for the derivation . Similar treatment of "analyze" would leave us with the definition of "take apart".

However, your point is well taken and my apologies are offered to all (especially brucelee). The modern synonym of "artificial" may be inadequate and clearly does not contain the precision of "synthesize".

brucelee, I still disagree in spirit, but I cannot fault your word choice.
 
quote:

Originally posted by Drivebelt:
Well, … what about the Carbon and Hydrogen molecules in the PAO? They weren’t synthesized. If one defines the “synthetic” label too narrowly, even PAO’s need not apply. Are we going force PAO producers to make their C/H molecules in a nuclear reactor from electrons/protons/neutrons so the C/H molecules are manmade and “synthetic” too?

And what about any non-manmade molecules that don’t get converted in the PAO process? If they’re making PAO from ethylene and a few molecules of ethylene aren’t converted and still exist in the finished Mobil 1 product, are we going to allow that product to be called 100% synthetic, or full synthetic? Or force Grp IV producers to remove any of those remaining ethylene molecules before the synthetic label can be applied. And then there is the issue of the additives, Ca, Mg ….etc.

One could debate the semantics of “synthetic” all day, but at some point you have to draw a line on what’s reasonable given the information and circumstances. There may not be one final definitive answer like in mathematics where 2+2=4. The courts have to make a judgement call (like in common law) on what a reasonable man would expect or decide. What it really comes down to is -- were the consumer interests well served by calling Grp III synthetics? And the answer is emphatically yes. It was a “reasonable” decision because of the excellent performance of Grp III’s. If the performance of GRp III’s weren’t anywhere near “traditional” synthetic motor oil, then I think consumers would have cause for concern.


You're using the reductio ad absurdum approach, by which any argument, even generally valid ones, can be extended so far that nothing makes sense. G-III oils (itself an overbroad term inclusive of several different beasts) perform well, especially in modern formulation, but that does not mean that it is justified to lump them together with G-IV and V products. The arb board decision was not a reasonable one, because it allows substantially different products to be marketed to consumers as if they are the same thing. Would you buy this argument if it involved medicines you put into your body instead of oils you put in your car? Hey, don't worry about what actually in those pills, they work great and that's all that matters. . .
 
Brucelee...syntec is 100% syn. The resulting product from the cracking processes is 100% different than waht they start with. You go ahead and pay way to much for you Mobil 1. Is the bandwagon ride bumpy?
 
quote:

Originally posted by speedtc:
Brucelee...syntec is 100% syn. The resulting product from the cracking processes is 100% different than waht they start with.

That's an opinion. In the US, apparently so. In Canada and Europe, not so much...

quote:

You go ahead and pay way to much for you Mobil 1. Is the bandwagon ride bumpy?

GroupIIIs like SYNTEC still lack the cold temperature flow of Mobil 1 and PAO/POE synthetics...

So, in essence, unless you're using GC or BC as a cold weather winter oil, you're wasting your money...
 
Havoline Synthetic 5w30 VI=172 CCS=3700 FP=471
AMSoil 5w30 VI=178 CCS=5067 FP=442

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quote:

Originally posted by speedtc:
Brucelee...syntec is 100% syn. The resulting product from the cracking processes is 100% different than waht they start with. You go ahead and pay way to much for you Mobil 1. Is the bandwagon ride bumpy?

We can play the word games all day long. . . If you agree that G-III is "synthetic", then Syntec is "synthetic". For those who don't agree, it isn't. And around and around we go. BTW, I agree that, as compared to G-I/II oils, it does undergo molecular change, so you may call it "synthetic" if you wish, but it simply isn't the same thing as a G-IV or V oil, and there's the problem -- an overused, misused word.

If I showed you a picture of my kid's 15 pound house cat, and another of a full-grown lion; and told you they were the same thing, you'd laugh in my face. Hey, they're both animals, they're even both cats, but are they so similar that they deserve the same name???

One more thing, if those who use Mobil 1 are paying "way too much" for it, then you've got a major problem with throwing stones in your glass house. In this area, at least in the AZ stores, the Syntec is virtually the same price as standard M1 (IIRC, about a dime difference). With all due respect, I think you're the one who's paying too much for his oil.

And finally, what's the need for the silly, personal, "bandwagon" comment??? Is your opinion so lacking in factual foundation that you must support it with personal attacks on other members?
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I realize my comments about synthesizing C/H molecules in a nuclear reactor were a little off-the-wall
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, but I was just trying to illustrate that if we push the synthetic label too far, even Grp IV/V’s might not qualify.

A Grp IV/V is molecularly synthesized by combining and rearranging various molecules.

A modern Grp III is produced largely the same way. The feed-stock (crude oil) molecules are rearranged and molecularly combined with hydrogen. Hydrogen is a key component of these Grp III’s, and it is being molecularly combined with the crude oil. This aspect seems to be missed on some discussions of modern Grp III’s.

I’m sure the Chevron article has been referenced before, but it summarizes the production aspects of these new Grp III oils well …

The Synthetic Nature Of Group III Base oils.pdf

Of particular note in that article, …

quote:

Earlier generations of Group III base oils were not produced using the all hydroprocessing route, such as deployed at Richmond. Consequently, they do not have the stability and exceptional performance of these modern Group III oils.

15 years ago a Grp III oil would unlikely have beat the 2 PAO’s in the Gear Oil test I referenced earlier. They simply weren’t as good as the modern Grp III’s being produced by the new all-hydroprocessing route. One of the PAO’s in that gear oil test had about half the oxygen stability of the Grp III in the longer stress test at higher temperature (170C).
 
quote:

Havoline Synthetic 5w30 VI=172 CCS=3700 FP=471
AMSoil 5w30 VI=178 CCS=5067 FP=442

Yes, I noticed that too. While the PAO’s have lower pour-points, these Grp III based oils actually have amazingly low CCS’s (cold-cranking-viscosity) at -30C.

5w30 synthetics … oil group … CCS -30C

P-platinum … … …V … …4410
Halvoline … … … III … … 3700
Petro-can … … … III … … 3404
Amsoil ASL … … IV … …5254
Amsoil XLF … …III … … 4341

At -30, even the Amsoil Grp III has a better CCV than the PAO based Amsoil. Although, I suspect that by -40 or -45C, a Grp IV/V may start to show better numbers than the Grp III’s. One has to live pretty far north before that will really become relevant.
 
But what is Castrol's CCV@-30C?

And pardon my ignorance, but what do these numbers actually mean?

[ April 17, 2006, 11:17 PM: Message edited by: Nickdfresh ]
 
Umm, no. You made a statement about G-III oils that was inaccurate and without basis. Just repeating ancient folklore as a foundation to attack Castrol is a re-occuring theme for you. If you are going to make claims about oil's performance here, you'd be well-advised to be able to back it up...so no feelings get hurt.
 
Well, it appears the Castrol is worse according to the standard set out? No? Did you even look at the link?

BTW, I have no feelings for any oil at this point. It's you guys obsessively defending Castrol since you used it in your cars a lot or something...
 
Now we're getting semantical.
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I guess they were sued because they were a GIV/V, and can sell US produced Syntec in Europe as "synthetic?"
 
Yeah, whatever you say. You bring a wealth of misconceptions, speculations and folklore to the Forum and deserve recognition for it. Castrol was sued? lol, you nailed that one!
 
A-U:

Respectfully, he asked a question, and a fair one at that. No need to use the question as an opportunity to bash another member. If you think he's wrong, a question is a perfect opportunity to show him why by laying out the facts. Why have you declined the opportunity to do so?

As to CCS values, I don't have it at my fingertips, but in essence, it's a measure of how much resistance an oil creates in an engine at startup. Honestly, living where I do, I don't pay much attention to this parameter -- might be more important to you two.
 
Patman wrote: (note, I only edited the spelling in the title)

What the h@ll, nobody ever edits my spelling; what makes this guy so special?
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