Car Care Nut -Why you shouldn't wait 100k mi to change coolant on a Toyota UR series V8.

[johnmyster]

Changing coolant every 5 years, even at $36 a gallon from the toyota stealership, is far cheaper and easier than measuring tenths.

Toyota even puts drain petcocks on the block. It's like they want you to drain the coolant or something. Our 2009 venza was made 15 years ago this month. It had the coolant drained the first time when the water pump went, and again last year. At 95k on the clock, I hope the head gaskets hang in there. But if they don't, it'll be a good time to reseal that 2GR front cover and get new cam gears.

 

[JeffKeryk]

I don't think anyone is defending Toyota, there is an issue be it either design or material but to conclude it was from the coolant not being changed enough with no testing of something as simple of the coolant acidity is a stretch. IMO mechanics should not try and play the roll of engineer, getting to the root cause and finding a possible solution is a lot more complicated than guess work.

You're just being logical again...

 

[Astro14]

There is even more unknown when you won't even watch the video. I understand if you don't like it and don't want to spend the time to watch or listen. But why comment then?
I also find him long winded but I wanted to see what he had to say. I watch it at 1.5x speed and on earphones while doing other work so I'm not spending that time exclusively on the video.

I perceive it as a legitimate concern because I was actually considering maybe one day buying one of these to replace my 2005 Silverado. But it looks like the type of failure that could have a high chance of happening after a certain number of hours of runtime or heat cycles and it's not a "cheap to fix" vehicle when compared to the Silverado. People don't seem to talk about the actual costs to repair very often anymore. It's like we just accept that it will be a mechanical write off at some point so who cares when.
As a former service advisor I already had a bit of experience with that and prices have gone way up since then. I never would have imagined a new complete engine one day costing $23,000. I remember the first time I made commission off an engine replacement. Brand new 350 in a 96 Chevy 1500 and the total bill was around $5500 Canadian. This was around 2006.

Where did I say, “Won’t even watch”??

I said, “Gave up at 10 minutes” in my first post.

I have now listened to the whole thing. Every single, long, boring second of it.

I stand by my earlier conclusions. They are unchanged by the additional content to which I just listened.

That said, I’ll consider an early coolant change, after I test the pH.

 

[Astro14]

And I just ordered test strips…

Which should make @D60 and @350Rocket happy…

 

[DougR]

CCN has to inform the customer that (a) the block and head might be within spec, or (2) the block is in spec and the head not in spec, or (3) both the block and head out of spec. So, if you are a customer who wants to keep the car, do you spend the money to tear it down and find out if the repair cost is on the low or high side?

If you were the shop owner, what would you tell the customer if either the head or block are barely within spec? Obviously, in this case, the the block is barely within spec. Would you warranty the repair if the customer doesn't want to replace the block, knowing that if it goes bad, you are liable for parts and labor?

 

[Astro14]

CCN has to inform the customer that (a) the block and head might be within spec, or (2) the block is in spec and the head not in spec, or (3) both the block and head out of spec. So, if you are a customer who wants to keep the car, do you spend the money to tear it down and find out if the repair cost is on the low or high side?

If you were the shop owner, what would you tell the customer if either the head or block are barely within spec? Obviously, in this case, the the block is barely within spec. Would you warranty the repair if the customer doesn't want to replace the block, knowing that if it goes bad, you are liable for parts and labor?

He said, at the end of the video, that he could not warranty the work with the block as is. Even though it is in spec.

He also said that he could not warranty an eBay engine, and that his current suppliers don’t have any of these in stock.

So, he’s going to have the customer sign a bunch of paperwork that there is no warranty on this work despite the high cost of labor before he goes any further. The customer has to consider whether they’re willing to pay $5,000 in labor and have him do just the head gaskets, or to dig in further without knowing what they will find.

I don’t envy his position.

Or the customer’s.

If this were to happen on my truck, for example, I would do the head gaskets, and hope for the best.

IF that fails, I might just shop for a new truck or, I might pull the motor and replace both the block and the heads with new, at a cost of around $10-$15,000 in parts.

I have the luxury of being able to do this work, and the space, and tools, with which to do it.

 

[DougR]

The Car Care Nut is customer focused. Other mechanics or service advisors would likely steer this customer towards a repair to make money whereas the Car Care Nut is willing to fully disclose to a customer all possible outcomes and costs before turning a wrench. CCN is willing to lose an opportunity to make money if the customer decides not to spend money for a teardown inspection.

 

[John105]

I own a 3UZ-FE and at least I’ve thought I have an aluminum block since 2016. So what did he mean about an iron block?

Pretty depressing to think a recent Toyota product is gonna need $23k in engine work. Which is why I believe just get a 7 series instead if there will be 5 figure repairs.

The 10 yr interval is why when I bought my 2006 in 2016, despite being dealer serviced, my car had ZERO coolant in its reservoir, and ZERO coolant to be seen when radiator cap removed. I was so sure I got ripped off and blown head gaskets. Until I learned in the Toyota world the pink coolant is 10 years and this is BAU. Topped it off, got it replaced, and here it is 8 years later no issues.

 

[John105]

Fair enough.

Like I said - I could only watch the first 10 minutes or so, out of sheer boredom. He just doesn't get to the point.

I used to feel that way. He’s a Toyota enthusiast. That’s highly unusual as Toyota is a utilitarian type of vehicle. Pretty sure he said he’s owned BMWs. If I didn’t own a V8 Toyota I likely wouldn’t have wanted to watch.

 

[DougR]

I'm a CCN fan. I also think he rambles in this video probably as a result of having to discuss this type of expensive repair over and over again with many customers (a stack of 10 bad head gaskets and four vehicles in the shop with head gasket symptoms and many others.) I think most of his customers belabor the repair conversation and as a result the CCN has many past scripts running through his mind. It's also possible he made the video after working all day and didn't spend any time preparing a script or highlights. I still learned about several potentials watching the video and decided that if I owned that vehicle with those symptoms and 200k miles, I would listen to what CCN had to say about it and probably sell the car for parts and buy something else.

 

[bullwinkle]

I like Toyota… FOUR CYLINDERS, and not the 2.4! Seems like the newer Tundras, between cam tower leaks, this potential HG issue, and the new twin turbo grenading V6-I think I’ll stick with the old LS GM truck engines…

 

[edyvw]

WhenI was watching his video on Sequoia 5.7, he said that engine is 500,000mls engine. What changed since than so it is suddenly a “trend?”

 

[Trav]

He said, at the end of the video, that he could not warranty the work with the block as is. Even though it is in spec.

He also said that he could not warranty an eBay engine, and that his current suppliers don’t have any of these in stock.

So, he’s going to have the customer sign a bunch of paperwork that there is no warranty on this work despite the high cost of labor before he goes any further. The customer has to consider whether they’re willing to pay $5,000 in labor and have him do just the head gaskets, or to dig in further without knowing what they will find.

I don’t envy his position.

Or the customer’s.

If this were to happen on my truck, for example, I would do the head gaskets, and hope for the best.

IF that fails, I might just shop for a new truck or, I might pull the motor and replace both the block and the heads with new, at a cost of around $10-$15,000 in parts.

I have the luxury of being able to do this work, and the space, and tools, with which to do it.

Good thing he doesnt do Subaru's or some of the Euro stuff, no engine would ever get fixed. If the block is within spec and the head is or can be brought into spec then I don't see what is the problem is. Calculate the correct HG thickness, get the correct gasket and get on with it.

https://www.cometic.com/applications/automotive/toyota/ur-series/3ur-fe--0ci57l-v8

 

[DougR]

He said, at the end of the video, that he could not warranty the work with the block as is. Even though it is in spec.

He also said that he could not warranty an eBay engine, and that his current suppliers don’t have any of these in stock.

So, he’s going to have the customer sign a bunch of paperwork that there is no warranty on this work despite the high cost of labor before he goes any further. The customer has to consider whether they’re willing to pay $5,000 in labor and have him do just the head gaskets, or to dig in further without knowing what they will find.

I don’t envy his position.

Or the customer’s.

If this were to happen on my truck, for example, I would do the head gaskets, and hope for the best.

IF that fails, I might just shop for a new truck or, I might pull the motor and replace both the block and the heads with new, at a cost of around $10-$15,000 in parts.

I have the luxury of being able to do this work, and the space, and tools, with which to do it.

In my opinion, in this case, a manufacturer spec on block flatness is no longer the deciding factor in a decision to warranty this repair when this is clearly a design flaw that leads to thermal distortion in this particular location in either the block, cylinder head or both.

I'm wondering if there is a core shift in the cooling liner during production. Toyota has an opportunity to collect observations from guys like the CCN and investigate this issue. If Toyota chooses to do so, the next step would be collect blocks barely within spec and out of spec, section them and find out if and where the internal casting or cooling liner is out of spec. CCN's field repair experience provides valuable data for Toyota to resolve future production issues of engine blocks that utilize this liner technology.

 

[DougR]

It's unreasonable to expect CCN to warranty parts and labor even if used parts are barely in spec in situations where there is obviously a design issue confirmed by multiple instances of where the block was either well within spec or out of spec. Now he has a situation where the block is barely within spec. CCN discloses far more to his customers than the typical mechanic or service advisor. Hopefully, going forward, CCN informs all customers before he begins a teardown, that if the block or head is barely within spec, he cannot warranty the work because this is a design issue. If a customer chooses not to replace parts barely within spec, it's on them. It's his shop, his choice if and when to warranty.

 

[Astro14]

In my opinion, in this case, a manufacturer spec on block flatness is no longer the deciding factor in a decision to warranty this repair when this is clearly a design flaw that leads to thermal distortion in this particular location in either the block, cylinder head or both.

I'm wondering if there is a core shift in the cooling liner during production. Toyota has an opportunity to collect observations from guys like the CCN and investigate this issue. If Toyota chooses to do so, the next step would be collect blocks barely within spec and out of spec, section them and find out if and where the internal casting or cooling liner is out of spec. CCN's field repair experience provides valuable data for Toyota to resolve future production issues of engine blocks that utilize this liner technology.

If the problem takes 200,000 miles to manifest itself, is it really a design flaw?

Particularly if, as CCN claims, that these gasket failures are caused by acidic coolant?

For the vehicle in question, both the block and heads were flat enough to be in spec.

So, if there was a core shift, why would they still be within specification after 200,000 miles?

 

[MBBW]

If the problem takes 200,000 miles to manifest itself, is it really a design flaw?

At 1:29, he mentions its predecessor will last 500-600k miles no problem, so I guess it's all relative whether or not it's a design flaw.

 

[MBBW]

I remember the first time I made commission off an engine replacement. Brand new 350 in a 96 Chevy 1500 and the total bill was around $5500 Canadian. This was around 2006.

Do service advisors make commission off repairs they book? That's wild if they do.

 

[Astro14]

At 1:29, he mentions its predecessor will last 500-600k miles no problem, so I guess it's all relative whether or not it's a design flaw.

He goes back and forth (remember, I said that he doesn’t get to the point?) between “design flaw” and “change your coolant, this was caused by acidic coolant”.

So, even he isn’t sure it’s a design flaw. He says that, then backs off and talks about coolant.

Further, if it’s a design flaw - why is the engine still in spec (for warp) after 200,000 miles?

So, which is it? A problem caused by lack of coolant maintenance? Or a design flaw?

He’s not sure, so I don’t see how anybody else could be.

You don’t suppose he’s using that kind of rhetoric just to generate controversy and drive more traffic to his channel…Do you?

 

[edyvw]

At 1:29, he mentions its predecessor will last 500-600k miles no problem, so I guess it's all relative whether or not it's a design flaw.

He also said that about 5.7 in Sequoia video.