Car buying strategy question

[Cogito]

Until a few months ago, I was unaware of the consequences of blowing a timing belt in interference vs. non-interference engine designs. My 89 Civic (125K miles) is running OK, but I think I will be replacing it this year. Although I like Hondas, most of their engines seem to be interference designs, as do many of the engines of many of the other car manufacturers also. On cars with only a 36K new car warranty, or possibly no warranty if it's a used car, it is easy to see how blowing a timing belt could end up costing me dearly, since I typically hold onto a car to the bitter end.

So, I'm thinking that when I buy my next car, maybe it makes sense for me to limit myself to only cars using NI engine designs. There are a lot of them out there; Toyota & Ford seem to have a few. And in this manner avoid exposing myself to the potentially high extra expenses that would be involved with an interference engine timing belt failure. Does this make any sense, or am I over-reacting?

 

[Gene K]

Yes, you are over reacting. Change it with a quality belt (OEM Supplier) with correct installation and you will be fine.

Just for info I believe the recent Nissan 1.8 - 2.5L engines are Non-Interference as well.

 

[spiderbypass]

I am by no means a mechanic. I think honda accords (4 cylinder models) use a timing chain as opposed to a belt. i am not sure about the civics, but i know they have an updated engine. As far as strategy, I think all civics, except the SI, and hybrid use the exact same engine. This is true for 4 cylinder accord as well, all use 2.4 engine. I would look for LX model for both and avoid higher costs of ex models that cut off headroom with a moonroof.

Another quick opinion....
If you buy new, buy Japanese, if buy used, by American..

 

[Cogito]

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Yes, you are over reacting. Change it with a quality belt (OEM Supplier) with correct installation and you will be fine.

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OK, but what about the cases where a quality belt breaks anyway? I guess what I'm wondering is if there are any inherent advantages in an interference design that I would be losing by only accepting a NI engine (all other factors being equal)? Because if there isn't, then why take the extra risk (albeit slight)? If you're the 1 person out of 50 whose belt failed early, being in the minority isn't much of a consolation for having to spend big bucks on a repair that could have been avoided.

 

[Titan]

I think the Interference engines tend to be more efficient in output per liter...that efficiency can show up as more HP or better MPG, or both. Whatever the reason(s) it's not just a seredipitous finding whether the engineers end up with an I or NI design.

If, as you say, you run a car to the bitter end, your current Honda should have a lot of life left in it...so, change the timing belt and keep on driving it!

 

[Oil Changer]

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Another quick opinion....
If you buy new, buy Japanese, if buy used, by American..

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That makes no sense. This is stupid advice.

 

[JTK]

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Another quick opinion....
If you buy new, buy Japanese, if buy used, by American..

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That makes no sense. This is stupid advice.

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From an economic / initial purchase price stand point it kind of does make sense. Many times a used Honda or Toyota is nearly as expensive as a new one. May as well buy new. Chevies or Fords on the other hand can often be had for half the price of new. (why I like my 1-3yr/old domestics!)

Joel

 

[Patman]

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From an economic / initial purchase price stand point it kind of does make sense. Many times a used Honda or Toyota is nearly as expensive as a new one. May as well buy new. Chevies or Fords on the other hand can often be had for half the price of new. (why I like my 1-3yr/old domestics!)

Joel

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I agree with Joel, when we bought our 2000 Civic, the dealer had some 98 Civics on their lot that were only $2000 less! Why would we buy a two year old one for almost the price of a new one? (especially since the new ones had better financing too, so the price per month was not much different at all)

 

[Cogito]

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I agree with Joel, when we bought our 2000 Civic, the dealer had some 98 Civics on their lot that were only $2000 less! Why would we buy a two year old one for almost the price of a new one? (especially since the new ones had better financing too, so the price per month was not much different at all)

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This seems pretty obvious and logical to me also. So, why are there so many folks out there buying up the used ones for almost the price of a new one?

 

[Patman]

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I agree with Joel, when we bought our 2000 Civic, the dealer had some 98 Civics on their lot that were only $2000 less! Why would we buy a two year old one for almost the price of a new one? (especially since the new ones had better financing too, so the price per month was not much different at all)

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This seems pretty obvious and logical to me also. So, why are there so many folks out there buying up the used ones for almost the price of a new one?

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This is something which has baffled me for years. The Honda Civic sells like crazy up here in Canada, it's one of the biggest sellers every year. And especially in Toronto, the used car market is flooded with them! So you'd think that based on this alone, the price of them would be cheaper, but yet it isn't. I have never understood that. The Civic is a very reliable car, but even that doesn't explain how it holds it's value so well in a saturated market.

 

[Chris Meutsch]

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This is something which has baffled me for years. The Honda Civic sells like crazy up here in Canada, it's one of the biggest sellers every year. And especially in Toronto, the used car market is flooded with them! So you'd think that based on this alone, the price of them would be cheaper, but yet it isn't. I have never understood that. The Civic is a very reliable car, but even that doesn't explain how it holds it's value so well in a saturated market.

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I think it has to do with long-term reliability and quality. Honda's hold their value because since they've been in America, they've for the most part been very reliable/durable. People have a pre-conceived notion that "It's a Honda, it will last forever" and because of that mentality over the years, perceived value goes up.

As for buying a car, go right after a snowstorm/bad weather day. There won't be anyone there and the salespeople will be begging to make a sale!

 

[fillitup]

Honda Civic is no1 selling car in Canada 2 or 3 years in a row.Lots out in B.C.

 

[Cogito]

OK, so what about the I/NI question?

 

[michaelc80]

In my opinion I think you're overreacting. Just make sure you have the belt changed as required and you'll be fine (or do it yourself and save some money).

 

[Quest]

IMHO it doesn't really matter whether it's an interference or non-interference design.

It ultimately boils down to proper care and maintenance of your car/engine. For a timing belt engine car, you shall seriously consider doing a once-over on timing belt, tensioner, waterpump (factory unit plse, no shotty aftermarket units that will faile/blow up on you in 300kms'time).

Let me put it this way: how many of avg joes/janes out there would would even check their oil/know how to read an oil dipstick? or check their tire air pressure??? Too many slackers are caught up on the notion that modern cars/engines are fairly reliable/durable to the point that they can simply drive it, fill it with gas and it will go almost forever, disregarding the fact that all mechanical device requires maintenance and servicing in order for it to provide long, reliable service life.

Gone are the days where most of the engines are simplistic in designs (emissions and efficiency requirements). Gone are the days where grandpa and dad would drive their domestics down to it's graves w/o even checking their timing chains for slacks.

The good news is, so long as you follow a rather rigid scheme of servicing your timing belt, tensioner + water pump at the predetermined factory service schedule, you are still returned with extremely long service life out of modern day engines.

Besides, this give no excuse for car owners to neglect their cars when it comes to water pump, thermostat, timing belt and coolant replacement servicing (LOL!)


p.s. even timing chain type of engine would snap or slack due to chain tensioner wear...

 

[Mokanic]

Yodas,Hondas,Nissans are all moving away from belts unfortunately. They use expensive chain designs as well as interference issues if the chain develops a problem.
I did a complete chain job on a Q45 that totaled almost 3K dollars. The dealer's estimate was even higher.
Timing belts were much better and much cheaper to repair. If your new Toyota,Honda,or Nissan has a timing chain;the best advise I can give you is to change your oil and do so regularly. Find you an oil like Schaeffer,or Amsoil that has a strong additive pack and change it regularly. I actually think some of your average oils are woefully inadequet to protect these over-engineered chain assemblies. R.P. has done very well in one of my customers 03Accord 4cyl.
Many people are gonna miss that belt when they get their first estimate to quiet the noisey chain under the hood.

 

[JohnBrowning]

I replaced I think 3-4 chains, 4 sprocets and the main tensioner on a 3RZVE Toyota and it was around $215 for all OEM Toyota parts and I did the labor. I even reused the head gasket. I can only imagine what the dealer would have wanted. You have to remove the oil pan, timing cover, radiator and head to do the job. The service manual says that you ahve to remove the front diff. as well but I was able to work around it!!! The only thing that was bad was the main tensioner but when I ordered my parts the parts guy told me he would put together a package of what is normaly used in the shop when a vechile comes in with a bad tensioner. I think their are something like 5-6 chains three tensioners 4 sprokets. It was a few years ago so I do not rember it all from memory. The parts guy sent me a few of the chains and a few of the sprokets and the main tensioner. I had not opened the engine up yet or I would have only ordered the tensioner but I could not afford to have the vechile down that long. I could have saved a lot of money. I was amazed that the chains and sprockets looked just like new and had no disernable wear. Seeing how I was that far into the engine I installed everything the parts guy had sent me!

I reused the OEM head gasket and it is still going strong. I have done that twice now on two different Toyota with no problem. I would never recomend that to anyone else but in a pinch you have to do make do with what you have. By the time I puting it back together and realized I had forgottenit I could not find one localy at all. Every parts store wanted a week to get one and I only had about 18 hours before the vechile had to be back in service. Even Toyota would need more then 24 hours to have gotten one.

 

[JohnBrowning]

By the way the main reason I changed that tensioner was the anoying noise it made when I started it up after a cold soak. The tensioner was still working but it had some lag in it!!!

A timeing belt is like brake bads. They wear and are considered normal maintence items. You periodicly have to check them and replace as need or at least at the required milage in the case of a belt. Their is some wiggle room built in to the OEM recomendation. So if the belt is scheduled for 60,000 mile replacement interval you can rest assured that 90% of the test fleet used for validation had no belt failures up to that point. Once you go past that the number of failures is going to start to rise rapidly. I would imagine they went until 70% of the fleet needed to be replaced then arived at a number that was 30% under that magic number. Belts get a bad rap and do not deserve it. Their is nothing wrong with a belt or an interference engine. It is up to the owner to maintain the vechile if maintence schedules are not followed as a minim you can expect some failures. Other vechiles with recalls or TSB's for early belt failure like Diamond Star Notors had you do not usualy see a lot of early belt failure. More often then not belts last easily past the OEM recomended replacement schedule! I do not have a problem with people useing after market belts but I do prefer them to at least get one with a big name brand on it as opposed to a house brand made by who know??!!!

 

[Brogy]

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I agree with Joel, when we bought our 2000 Civic, the dealer had some 98 Civics on their lot that were only $2000 less! Why would we buy a two year old one for almost the price of a new one? (especially since the new ones had better financing too, so the price per month was not much different at all)

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This seems pretty obvious and logical to me also. So, why are there so many folks out there buying up the used ones for almost the price of a new one?

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Got me too. A friend went to get a car, was looking at a base model 2001 honda civic with basically no addons. Dealer quoted her $12,000

 

[CBDFrontier06]

Personally, I'm glad carmakers are moving away from timing belts. The average lifespan of a timing chain is easily 2 or more times that of a belt, so for most car owners it's not a point of concern before the car dies for other reasons, or they have gotten rid of it. My brother owns several Ford vehicles, all having well over $150K miles on them and has yet to replace a timing chain. One can also find numerous members of Nissan forums that have gone over 200K miles in their Maximas with no work done on the valvetrain.

Yes, there are certain makes and models that suffer from premature guide and tensioner wear, (the 90's Cavaliers come to mind) but IMO that's still better than pushing your luck with a belt, and the bent valves that come with them when 80K miles comes and goes.

I went through that timing belt change B.S. with my 94 Eclipse and it broke 3 days after I traded it in - only 1 year after the belt change. I literally dodged a $1500 bullet by 3 days. My advice would be to look for timing chain-equipped engines instead of non-interference engines, as that will leave your options open to more vehicles.