camber problem

[schuylkill]

So back in Nov. I put in a used transmission on my 91 ef sedan which my son drives. Before I put on the snows for the winter I took it to a local alignment shop I've been dealing with for years and I've never had a problem with them. They said the alignment was out, that's all they said, and did the alignment. Well when I pulled off the front snows a few months later they were shot, the inner ribs badly worn. I took it back to the shop and they put it on the machine and said the alignment was out, that's all they said again, and they did another no charge alignment. So a couple of months later I check out the front tires and they are shot, same condition. My son took it back to the shop last week and the original owner of the place checked it out this time (he's mostly retired, his son runs the place now) and he told my son the camber is out and to get adjustable ball joints and bring it back in. That was a $35 charge. So I have 2 issues here. Does it make sense that the camber would go out after installing the transmission, the tires were wearing fine before? I also replaced the rear mount. And shouldn't the shop have told me the camber was out at the first alignment so I could have maybe saved my tires?

So is it the upper adjustable ball joints he is talking about? I'm going to stop by the shop tomorrow and get more information, now that I've done a little research. There are more or less amounts of adjustment available for more or less amounts of money. It seems to me that whatever changed from swapping in the transmission should be able to be fixed by replacing whatever it is that is causing the problem. I don't want to put out $ until I feel certain it is going for the right part.

 

[bdcardinal]

Yes it is absolutely possible. By removing that subframe you totally screwed up the alignment. They either need to take the subframe back out and put it back in aligned correctly, or install adjustable ball joints to get it as close as possible.

 

[tinmanSC]

While I cannot speak about your specific situation, this does happen on my Lexus GS. The problem is that as the ball joints wear out, they change the alignment. There are posts all over the Lexus forums about people getting 2-3 alignments in a few month period and still having the same problem: alignment is off after a very short period. Ball joint issues sound perfectly reasonable to me, even if this is not the specific issue in your case.

 

[tinmanSC]

Originally Posted By: bdcardinal
Yes it is absolutely possible. By removing that subframe you totally screwed up the alignment. They either need to take the subframe back out and put it back in aligned correctly, or install adjustable ball joints to get it as close as possible.


If the subframe were off a bit, wouldn't an alignment resolve the tire wear problem? The alignment procedure would correct for a slight re-assembly issue (just in terms of tire wear), I would think. Why would he need to keep having them done? Why would it keep sliding out of alignment?

Maybe these are stupid questions and i need to educate myself on alignments...

 

[The_Jeff]

I suspect your strut to knuckle connection is perverted.

If the stock struts have round holes you can't adjust, and the aligment computer will say NA.

If in the last 22 years aftermarket struts went in that have elongated holes, this needs messing with. A little change here means a huge change in toe.

Also the subframe alignment can matter. Are there dowel holes etc that you can stick something in to line up the unibody while you torque the huge bolts?

 

[bdcardinal]

Originally Posted By: tinmanSC
Originally Posted By: bdcardinal
Yes it is absolutely possible. By removing that subframe you totally screwed up the alignment. They either need to take the subframe back out and put it back in aligned correctly, or install adjustable ball joints to get it as close as possible.


If the subframe were off a bit, wouldn't an alignment resolve the tire wear problem? The alignment procedure would correct for a slight re-assembly issue (just in terms of tire wear), I would think. Why would he need to keep having them done? Why would it keep sliding out of alignment?

Maybe these are stupid questions and i need to educate myself on alignments...


The subframe has to be put back perfectly square in order for the alignment to not change. They sell long dowels to help with the alignment when you reinstall the subframe. Generally there will be excessive positive camber on one side, and excessive negative camber on the other. Even being 1/16" or 1/8" off with the subframe can cause huge alignment issues since the lower suspension is attached to the subframe.

Different car, but on Mustangs when people change out k-members, there is a proper procedure to install that involves squaring the K-member to the rear lower control arm body mounting bolts that most people don't do because it takes too long. Those are the people with constant suspension issues.

 

[Tegger]

Originally Posted By: bdcardinal
By removing that subframe

I'm not seeing where schuylkill removed the subframe. An engine mount yes, the subframe no.

 

[Tegger]

Originally Posted By: schuylkill
Does it make sense that the camber would go out after installing the transmission, the tires were wearing fine before?

Did you or did you not loosen or remove the subframe? Did you or did you not tamper at all with the subframe bolts?

 

[bdcardinal]

Usually to do a transmission on a FWD car you have to drop the subframe, at least on every one I have done you have had to.

 

[schuylkill]

I dropped the subframe when doing the rear engine mount, it wasn't necessary for the transmission itself. But yes I did drop the subframe and yes it was problematic getting it back in place. If I recall I was just glad that I finally got the bolts to thread back in place and that was that.

 

[Tegger]

Originally Posted By: schuylkill
I dropped the subframe when doing the rear engine mount

Oops. That's most likely your problem. The factory uses special jigs when positioning the front and rear subframes during the car's build. By disturbing one or both of the subframes, you've very likely completely upset the front-end's geometry.

But all may not be lost. If you don't mind spending the money, any body shop can check and adjust subframe alignment for you. They do that sort of thing all the time during collision repair. This is not something an alignment shop can normally do.

 

[schuylkill]

Dropping the sub-frame is the standard procedure when doing the rear mount, try it without doing it. The mounting bolts are a tight fit and do the realignment. The frame may move but not significantly so I'm told. It just bothers me that I've paid for an alignment, then got a free alignment, then had an alignment and components check, to tell me the camber is out and causing the tire wear. In the meantime I've trashed two sets of tires. I didn't get a chance to stop by the shop but I will before I buy and install anything.

 

[Tegger]

Originally Posted By: schuylkill
Dropping the sub-frame is the standard procedure when doing the rear mount, try it without doing it.

My mechanic raised my engine 3" in order to replace that mount, when I had this procedure done a few years ago. He says he never touches the subframe.

 

[schuylkill]

It's not the engine location that is the problem to getting access.

 

[Tegger]

Originally Posted By: schuylkill
It's not the engine location that is the problem to getting access.

Then what is?

 

[schuylkill]

The frame/firewall and the sub-frame. It's a 2 piece assembly. It's the lower nut on the rear bolt that is gnarly. The engine could be out of the car and that would still be a problem.

 

[Tegger]

Originally Posted By: schuylkill
The frame/firewall and the sub-frame. It's a 2 piece assembly. It's the lower nut on the rear bolt that is gnarly. The engine could be out of the car and that would still be a problem.

My guy had no trouble. Once he raised the engine 3 inches, that is. At that point he did everything from underneath, as I understand him. Remember that he has air tools.