BMW using brushed motors

[edyvw]

I drive our GS350 F Sport most of the time. Just put new Pilot 4S, split sizes, all around.
I love this car. Quality and reliability!

We swapped wifey's RX450h for the F Sport version. It is a different car. I am not much into SUVs, but this is a nice one. And you can do a lot with one... The RX is Lexus' biggest seller.
The problem I have with Lexus is all the buttons. After driving the Tesla, with its clean interior, voice commands, etc, I find Lexus interior cluttered and kinda confusing. But the HUD and BSM are far better than the little Tesla.

The IS is a sardine can. Too dang small.

The problem I have with RX is suspension from my Sienna. I mean at category they wanna play it is but ridiculous.
I drove GS350 when I did some consulting in AL for that period. It is good car, but IMO Lexus missed opportunity there to make it more exciting. It is like they gave up and just aimed at customers that will buy it regardless.

 

[JeffKeryk]

The problem I have with RX is suspension from my Sienna. I mean at category they wanna play it is but ridiculous.
I drove GS350 when I did some consulting in AL for that period. It is good car, but IMO Lexus missed opportunity there to make it more exciting. It is like they gave up and just aimed at customers that will buy it regardless.

The early GS, 2013 to 2015, have better suspension. The '13 has the 6 speed, as do all the AWD models. The 8 speed hunts for a gear.
I almost bought a nice newer one, also an F Sport, but I really didn't like it. My car was much better.

 

[OVERKILL]

Good points; lemme tak a shot.
Efficiency - Bigger battery to make up for less efficient design overall including drivetrain (as shown in computed results).

That's my point. It was pinned on the motor but weight and aerodynamics are likely the real reason. We really have no data on the motors other than they seem to work well in propelling a car of this weight quickly.

Old tech - Tesla has leading OTA updates, faster infotainment interface. Voice commands. Buttons vs interface.

The BMW has voice commands; heck the X3 we had as a loaner took voice commands. Yes, Tesla's OTA update platform is so far, the most advanced on the market, no argument there, how much is that going to matter to Joe Average consumer and not a tech junkie?

The Bimmer has both AirPlay and Android auto, wirelessly, as well as wireless charging. That's an advantage.

Same with the HUD and information about the car behind the wheel, where you expect it. That's an advantage, having used both.

People like buttons. I like buttons and I'm 41 and have worked in IT for over 20 years. Same reason I preferred the Blackberry keyboard over my current iPhone 12, buttons are simply better for some things. My wife's RAM has the seat/wheel heat in the infotainment as well as physical buttons. Guess which is easier to get to and more intuitive? the buttons. My Jeep unfortunately only has them in the infotainment. It's the same reason I'm typing this (quite quickly I might add...) on a physical keyboard and navigating with a mouse, not doing those things on a touch screen, which is slower.

Legacy cars owners may struggle with iPad interface but ask any person under 30 which is better. Or what they want...

That would be an interesting poll. Anybody who typed on a Blackberry vs an iPhone knows which one is better, but the iPhone still won out because of the ecosystem (apps, integration with other Apple products...etc). Physical buttons for certain functions are just "better". HVAC controls, if you are somebody that doesn't use "Auto", seat/wheel heat/cooling. Turning parking sense on/off, traction control on/off, trailer brake gain...etc. Yes, all of that could be integrated into a giant iPad, but it'll be less efficient and more distracting to use, which I found was the case with having the speed located to the right, on the tablet, versus behind the wheel or, ideally, projected.

If you don't build a pure play product, you are building a set of compromises. This makes improvements more complicated, difficult and costly.

In what sense? My impression of the bimmer is that, other than being portly, it handles extremely well, has far better brakes and a nicer interior. What are they going to improve (other than weight) given that the platform appears to already be excellent?

This is where, IMO, BMW made a critical mistake. Sure, car companies have shared platforms since the 1900's, but this is not a Chevelle Tempest Cutlass product. The BMW was designed as an ICE front engine and transmission RWD vehicle. EV motor placement is completely different. Even interior seating is compromized. And the Beemer is far more expensive.

Well, the CLAR platform, which this car is based on, was designed to be Modular in nature. The electric powertrain subassemblies are entirely different modules from what the ICE version gets. It was designed, from the get-go, when it debuted in 2015, to be capable of housing an ICE configuration, hybrid configuration, and full EV configuration, it was never designed to be ICE and then converted to EV after the fact. This is very similar to the approach that FCA took with the DT RAM, but clearly BMW is much further along the execution side of things.

When we speak of "platform" here, this isn't a J-Body Cavalier vs Cimarron. The CLAR platform has a massive number of vehicles built on it; everything that BMW produces from the 7-series through to the 2 series, including the X3, X5, X7...etc leverages this architecture.

From my vantage point, reading about it (there's a very good Wiki on it), it doesn't sound like a compromise at all actually. Yes, it shares sheetmetal with the 3/4 series and can thus be assembled using many of the same robots (which were retooled/upgraded for that purpose) but due to the modular nature of the platform architecture, the underpinnings can be quite different where necessary and in fact are, as several new robots had to be added because of the significant differences in the floor structure, the electric powertrain, rear structure and of course the battery system.

I found this quite neat (from the Wiki on it):

An active air flap control at the bottom of the grille can be adjusted in ten stages, allowing cooling air to be supplied to the drive system, battery, brakes, and air conditioning system in precise quantities

And yes, the bimmer is more expensive, anything with an M badge is expensive, always has been. But you get a lot of interior for that money

I would say my biggest disagreement with you is BMW's choice to use the existing platform. IMO, that offered a quick way to get a competiting car to market, but that's all. From an EV standpoint, it is a cludge. I thought BMW would come out with a Tesla beater; they took a shortcut that buys them very little going forward.

The Beemer is an electrified 3/4 Series. Teslas are futuristic; they are the future.
"Wait till the big guys get in the game..."

Read the above, everything BMW produces is based on this modular (and quite new) architecture. It's definitely not a cludge, it sounds like they are streamlining their operations and this started back in 2015. I'm actually more impressed with the car after reading about this than I was before, when I thought it was more of an adaptation like what Audi did with the e-tron.

 

[OVERKILL]

They are introducing a new platform that will be modular EV/ICE in 2025, together with new ICE engines.
They did not make a critical mistake. They are in business 117 years, and for example know how to defrost windows, or have suspension for 200mph vehicles etc.
They are in the business of making cars and money and considering they just posted record numbers, they are far from critical mistakes.

Reading up on it, this already is a modular platform (CLAR) that was designed to be ICE/HEV/EV already. I expect we'll see the next generation of that in 2025, as this platform debuted in 2015.

 

[edyvw]

Reading up on it, this already is a modular platform (CLAR) that was designed to be ICE/HEV/EV already. I expect we'll see the next generation of that in 2025, as this platform debuted in 2015.

Hmm, not sure about it as I think BMW CEO was explaining it is not.
I think CLAR is modular from different aspect among various ICE models.

 

[OVERKILL]

Hmm, not sure about it as I think BMW CEO was explaining it is not.
I think CLAR is modular from different aspect among various ICE models.

The Wiki says it is:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_CLAR_platform

It is designed to accommodate a pure ICE drivetrain, has an optional 48-volt electrical system in a mild-hybrid configuration, but also supports plug-in hybrid and battery electric drivetrains

Initially called “35up”, the new RWD architecture was later relabeled as CLAR, short for Cluster Architecture. CLAR, which will be found in the next 3, 5, 6 and 7 Series models, and also in the X3, X4, X5, X6 and X7, is a platform that mixes high-strength steel, aluminum and carbon fiber to drop significant weight for future models. For example, the upcoming 5 Series is rumored to be 80 kg lighter than its predecessor. It’s unknown at the moment whether the 2 Series Coupe and Convertible will also retain rear-wheel drive and use CLAR.

CLAR depicts the extra flexibility provided by fewer but more versatile submodules (clusters) which are more extensively adjustable in content, size and adaptability. The new architecture also offers enough room for a longer wheelbase and a shorter front overhang. Rolls Royce will also use the same architecture for their upcoming models.

And then this (2017) article confirms it:
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/...w-bmw-platforms-can-cope-multiple-powertrains

Insight: how new BMW platforms can cope with multiple powertrains
The German firm has developed two flexible architectures capable of running combustion engine, hybrid and full electric motors.

BMW’s plan to launch future models based on one of two modular architectures will include a rear-wheel drive platform that can house everything from downsized internal combustion engines to three-motor all-wheel drive electric cars with more than 800bhp.

BMW is hedging in bets in being able to respond to every type of drivetrain a customer might desire as it “simply cannot be sure” how much demand there will be for any particular drivetrain in the future, according to Lutz Meyer, who works on BMW’s product strategy for architectures.

Each of its models will be capable of being equipped with a standard internal combustion engine, a plug-in hybrid drivetrain to electrify the axle not driven by the engine, or a fully electric one.

Full EV configurations will include a single motor on the front axle for the front-wheel drive models and an optional one on the rear axle for all-wheel drive; a single motor on the rear axle for rear wheel drive, with an optional one on the front axle for four-wheel drive; and a further one on the rear axle for performance models to create a car with more than 800bhp.

BMW will offer the electric motors in different ‘sizes’, with a small 134bhp and medium 255bhp for entry-level electric vehicles, and a large 335bhp one and extra large 402bhp-plus version for performance models.

So, it's always been designed to handle full EV.

 

[JeffKeryk]

@OVERKILL respectfully, you are arguing both sides of the arguement. You say the i4 is heavy and less aero because it is a dual purpose design but it is not a compromise. Can't have it both ways, right?
I come from a manufacturing envirornment. Changes to a multi purpose product must accomodate multiple configurations.
Imagine a BMW 6 cylinder, choice of transmissions, etc in a Tesla Model 3. It would be a much different vehicle and never perform as well as it does.

From a business perspective, BMW has to spread scarce resources over competing products. I believe that's why they built an EV based on an ICE platform, or at least an ICE/EV platform. End products become a compromise.
Tesla, as a pure play EV company, has no such problem.

 

[edyvw]

@OVERKILL respectfully, you are arguing both sides of the arguement. You say the i4 is heavy and less aero because it is a dual purpose design but it is not a compromise. Can't have it both ways, right?
I come from a manufacturing envirornment. Changes to a multi purpose product must accomodate multiple configurations.
Imagine a BMW 6 cylinder, choice of transmissions, etc in a Tesla Model 3. It would be a much different vehicle and never perform as well as it does.

From a business perspective, BMW has to spread scarce resources over competing products. I believe that's why they built an EV based on an ICE platform, or at least an ICE/EV platform. End products become a compromise.
Tesla, as a pure play EV company, has no such problem.

BMW doesn’t have scarce resources.
BMW is in first and foremost ICE game. They don’t need pure EV nor government subsidies etc.
What it seems a problem here is that they do whatever they want to do and Tesla owners are thinking that anyone that is not doing what Elon does is wrong.
I mean, talking about insecurities.

 

[OVERKILL]

@OVERKILL respectfully, you are arguing both sides of the arguement. You say the i4 is heavy and less aero because it is a dual purpose design but it is not a compromise. Can't have it both ways, right?

No, I'm not saying it's heavy and less aero because it's a multi-purpose design, I've just stated that is heavier than the Tesla (it is) and it's likely less aerodynamic, which makes the car less efficient; fewer miles per kWh.

I'm sure they could have made it lighter. They also could have made it more aerodynamic. Given that BMW produces everything they build that isn't FWD on this platform, and it is completely modular, they could have wildly changed the sheetmetal if they wanted, made it more aerodynamic, but they didn't because they want it to look a certain way, like a BMW.

Is that a compromise? Yes. But it appears to be one they've consciously made so that the car LOOKS like a BMW. It's not a limitation of the platform in as much as it was a design choice in my opinion.

On the weight, well, it has a lot of "stuff"; it's quite the opposite of the Tesla in terms of interior design. It also has bigger brakes and I'm sure other components that add to the heft. I expect is also has a fair bit of sound deadening material. That all adds up.

I come from a manufacturing envirornment. Changes to a multi purpose product must accomodate multiple confugurations.
Imagine a BMW 6 cylinder, choice of transmissions, etc in a Tesla Model 3.

BMW is producing RWD and AWD configurations on this platform and everything ranging in size from a 2-series to an X7 SUV (which is quite large). This isn't "multiple configurations" of the same thing, this is a wholly modular architecture where different components can be swapped out for other, entirely different components, like LEGO, and those components may be wildly different in size.

From reading on this particular product, it sounds like the entire floor pan, front and rear assemblies along with some other bits are entirely unique to the i-series electric vehicles. But they do share sheetmetal with some of the other products which seems logical given how they want it to look.

From a business perspective, BMW has to spread scarce resources over competing products. I believe that's why they built an EV based on an ICE platform, or at least an ICE/EV platform. End products become a compromise.
Tesla has no such problem.

Tesla isn't producing three different types of vehicle on top of producing 10 different sized products. The 3 and Y share the same underpinning as do I believe the S and X, that's it, those are two platforms for four vehicles, all of which are EV.

BMW has used a single modular architecture for everything, including Rolls Royce products! To put it into "Tesla" terms, that's like producing the S, X, Y, 3, Cybertruck and Roadster all on the same "platform".

 

[UncleDave]

BMW doesn’t have scarce resources.
BMW is in first and foremost ICE game. They don’t need pure EV nor government subsidies etc.
What it seems a problem here is that they do whatever they want to do and Tesla owners are thinking that anyone that is not doing what Elon does is wrong.
I mean, talking about insecurities.

 

[edyvw]

View attachment 85282

Ok. Let’s see how much they get. They only need 10yrs to catch up with Tesla’s subsidies.

 

[JeffKeryk]

BMW doesn’t have scarce resources.
BMW is in first and foremost ICE game. They don’t need pure EV nor government subsidies etc.
What it seems a problem here is that they do whatever they want to do and Tesla owners are thinking that anyone that is not doing what Elon does is wrong.
I mean, talking about insecurities.

Every company has scarce resources. That's why we have C-Level management.
And why people like me have jobs; to provide them with predictive analytics to help them make decisions; how to best allocate those scarce resources.

IMO, BMW's CLAR methodology cannot build an optimum product as compared to a purpose built methodology.
The Model 3 vs i4 comparison is evidence of this.

 

[OVERKILL]

Just as a reference point to the interior remarks, this is the i4 M50 interior:

Model 3 interior in comparions (Jeff, I know you are familiar with this already):

Clearly, the Tesla interior is quite a bit more spartan. It also will, but virtue of being more simple, weigh less. And of course the bigger battery adds to the weight too, which was likely necessary based on the exterior design choice and other "weight adding" features, lol.

 

[Vern_in_IL]

I really think this push of "EV's" is a HUGE MISTAKE.

I want to see hydrogen powered vehicles. Toyota continues to go that direction to hydrogen. Either electric cars will become so cheap that Hydrogen is not competitive(new car price), or EV tech will hit a plateau with this crap BMW is doing....

If a EV can do 0-60 in 4 seconds, why even get more performance? At some point road traction will be the limit, or the blood in your brain slamming the back of your head.

 

[OVERKILL]

Every company has scarce resources. That's why we have C-Level management.
And why people like me have jobs; to provide them with predictive analytics to help them make decisions; how to best allocate those scarce resources.

IMO, BMW's CLAR methodology cannot build an optimum product as compared to a purpose built methodology.
The Model 3 vs i4 comparison is evidence of this.

People said the same thing when BMW started producing the M cars on the same line as the non-M cars. The E39 M5 was supposed to be a big compromise because it wasn't a "dedicated" M car. Ended up being one of the best cars the company has ever made.

If that architecture is modular and flexible enough, there should be no reason that the product won't be everything it was supposed to be.

So far, what I'm seeing as the main gripes here are:
1. It doesn't have the same efficiency/range as the Tesla
2. It's heavier than the Tesla
3. It has a bigger battery than the Tesla to make up for #1 and #2
4. It charges slower than the Tesla

None of those point to the CAR being a compromise in as much as they highlight decisions BMW made in bringing what they felt was a proper "BMW EV" to market. The only stand-out then is the charge rate, and that's not a car problem either, that's a battery/software decision.

Now, what it has going for it:
1. It's fast, despite being heavy.
2. It has a gorgeous interior that isn't going to alienate people. The interior is nicer than the Tesla.
3. It has huge brakes, so if you do track it, they will hold up, unlike the Tesla
4. It has a better ride than the Tesla
5. It has adjustable suspension, unlike the Tesla
6. It has physical buttons for HVAC and seat/wheel heat/cooling, unlike the Tesla
7. It has a heads-up display and a cluster you don't have to look to the right away from the road, unlike the Tesla

Some of those might not matter to some people, but they are high on my list and I'm sure the list of many others.

To get down to the (valid) critiques here though:

- The weight thing, well, we've discussed that. This car doesn't weigh much more than my old M5 did. Bimmers aren't typically "light" cars. One of the components in this is the interior and you aren't going to see BMW emulating Tesla's interiors, full stop. I wouldn't want them to either, their interiors are very nice; one of my favourites. I'll note that the Rivian R1 is also quite heavy (7,000lbs), and it's a ground-up EV.

- Range/efficiency, well, that ties into the weight and appearance choices made so that the car looks and feels a certain way. If range is your main criteria, you probably weren't shopping M cars in the first place. This is also why they had to go with a larger battery.

- It charges slow. That's going to bug some people. Not an issue if you are charging at home all the time, but will be a PITA if you road trip. Like with Audi and Porsche, we'll probably see some updates here at some point, but right now, that's a big detractor if you intend on using the car for long drives.

We might see some range/efficiency improvements down the road with updates, same with the charge rate. This and the iX are the first two mainstream (if we ignore the i3) dedicated EV's BMW has produced and there is going to be a learning curve on the software for sure. Tesla has a BIG lead in this department, and they've made a ton of improvements themselves over the years, so we should expect the same from other marques as they become more familiar with this technology and their software matures.

What I would like to see more of is true dedicated OTA update capability, unlike what Ford and Audi are doing where major updates still require the dealer.

 

[alcyon]

Better in floods ?

 

[JeffKeryk]

The BMW has a beautiful interior, no doubt. But it is more cramped, less headroom and less width in the back seat. What's in that tunnel?
The BMW has great bolstered seats, but supposedly the Tesla seats are more comfortable.

I'm sure owners will love their new cars, which ever one they choose.
Good conversation.

 

[nthach]

Lexus gave me a UX as a loaner. I felt like I was in a crackerbox coffin. Hated it; no thank you. The NX is far better and the RX is the one to get.
I guess I shouldn't hold my breath for a GS350e F Sport, huh?

The UX is basically a less ugly 4th gen Prius with higher rooflines.

Subaru announced the TNGA-E based Solterra. If anything, there will be an RXe/NXe before a BEV Toyota IMO in the flesh. Lexus and Subaru are more “lifestyle” brands compared to Toyota, well except for the bros and Tacomas/4Runners/Tundras.

 

[edyvw]

The BMW has a beautiful interior, no doubt. But it is more cramped, less headroom and less width in the back seat. What's in that tunnel?
The BMW has great bolstered seats, but supposedly the Tesla seats are more comfortable.

I'm sure owners will love their new cars, which ever one they choose.
Good conversation.

Best seats in industry are provided by BMW. These bolstered seats are always number one choice of journalists and my 3 series has far more comfortable seats than for example my Sienna Ltd that comes with those real leather etc. seats (junk) or what you can find in Lexus GS (I know, I drive that car for a while).
Any comfort or sport seats in any older or current BMW are more comfortable than what Tesla offers in any of their vehicles (I know, I drove it).
Tunnel is not tunnel, it is that rear deck, just looks like that on photo.
As @OVERKILL pointed, BMW’s are heavy. They have a lot of insulation and complex suspension, large brakes etc. My X5 who you could fit into my Sienna was packing 500lbs more. Guess which one was nicer, MUCH better built and far more dynamic vehicle?

 

[OVERKILL]

The BMW has a beautiful interior, no doubt. But it is more cramped, less headroom and less width in the back seat. What's in that tunnel?
The BMW has great bolstered seats, but supposedly the Tesla seats are more comfortable.

I, personally, didn't find the Tesla seats that great. My M5 seats are still the most comfortable ones in any vehicle I've owned. That's not to say the Jeep seats aren't excellent (they are) but the M5 seats were truly phenomenal. Worthwhile to mention of course that they were well broken in, as leather does.

On the "tunnel" remark, given the car has its own floor pan, this isn't the same height as a trans tunnel (I know that's what you were thinking ) but rather a smaller raised area that they've run the wiring through:

I'm sure owners will love their new cars, which ever one they choose.
Good conversation.

I'm sure you are quite right, I'll be interested to see how long before I start seeing them around. We've only got one e-tron locally as far as I know and quite a few 3's and Y's along with the odd S and X. I've recently started to see more electric VW's and of course there's the Bolt that's just over from me. I used to see a Leaf around but haven't in a while, not sure if they got rid of it or what happened there. There are at least three Mach-E's around too.

And yes, good conversation. I learned a lot more about this car and BMW's CLAR architecture than before we started, doing that digging, lol.