BMW Pilot iX5 EV No Batteries, Recharges/H2 Fuels in less than 4 minutes

[OVERKILL]

As does the battery operated electrical vehicles. They fail to mention the immense amount of resources required to produce electricity and send it through transmission lines in order to recharge cars on location.
What is the efficiency of that by the time you fuel the power plants and transmit the electricity 25%?

I think you are perhaps missing the point that @97prizm made:

With a hydrogen fuel cell, however, you first have to convert the electricity to hydrogen via electrolysis, which is only 75% efficient. Then the gas has to be compressed, chilled and transported, which loses another 10%. The fuel cell process of converting hydrogen back to electricity is only 60% efficient, after which you have the same 5% loss from driving the vehicle motor as for a BEV. The grand total is a 62% loss – more than three times as much. Or, to put it another way, for every kW of electricity supply, you get 800W for a BEV, but only 380W for an FCV – less than half as much.

So, take your power plant efficiency + transmission losses and then add that entire stack of losses he just mentioned on top of that, because the "green" hydrogen fuel cycle starts at that point.

It's a far lossier process.

Even with that pathetic efficiency we’re not even capable of doing it. I mean how many times do I have to repeat in the year 2022 California had trouble recharging 600,000 cars how is that going to replace 20 million cars that run on gasoline?

I mean, this is just common sense

OK, but see the above as to why Hydrogen isn't going to get it done either.

 

[OVERKILL]

First let me say I know nothing about your industry and without question I acknowledge your expertise in electricity.

I'm flattered but it's not my industry, I only am part of it on the advocacy and research side, though I have been accused of being a disgruntled employee by our publicly owned utility OPG, so you aren't the first to assume I work in the industry, lol.

With that said. Im not so sure I imply, well maybe I do that h2 is "immune"
As far as more problematic, that may or may not be true, I dont think we know what the major energy companies can come up with regarding h2 vs electric utilities revamping the entire electrical network of the USA. Energy companies are not just going to close up shop and go away.
So I think for the consumer they will find it much more easy to fill up on h2 vs try to charge multiple vehicles at their homes at night. It's just not possible but it will be possible to recharge your h2 like you fill your gas tank now.
Nor will the public want to sit at charging stations to recharge cars vs almost filling up a tank like they did with gasoline.

OK, let's dumb this down a bit if you don't mind?

- The hydrogen infrastructure doesn't exist to produce hydrogen, by any means, to power a vehicles at scale. Current methane reformation methods, which run on methane, produce something like 95% of the world's hydrogen, most of which is used BY THE OIL INDUSTRY, as it's a useful and often necessary component for various processes.

- Currently, the lack of hydrogen supply is a BIGGER issue than the lack of electricity. Because we have a massive amount of generation and transmission infrastructure in place already, even if it's not sufficient, at present, to handle millions of EV's, it's already much, MUCH further along than what would be required for hydrogen, which anecdotal examples about there being no hydrogen filling stations, anywhere, in many states as noted earlier in the thread illustrates.

Why?

We use electricity. All of us. We are using it right now. When was the last time you handled pure hydrogen? We don't, people don't handle hydrogen; consumers don't handle hydrogen and the world's supply of hydrogen isn't in any way setup for that to be the case. We don't have sufficient production capacity, transport capacity, handling capacity...etc. There are serious challenges, and, as noted, the whole process is insanely lossy!

There's a massive difference between approving a few big power plants along with Uncle Elon adding some more charging stations vs building DOUBLE the amount of those power plants (see the previous stack of losses as to why), then massive hydrogen production and compression facilities, then you have to transport (truck?) it, and it's far less dense than gasoline/diesel and requires special tanks and it leaks and so you end up with a massive increase in truck traffic trying to move this stuff around, and then you have huge risks with consumers handling THOUSANDS of psi of highly dangerous invisible gas. You can't pump your own propane most locations, how do you think that compares to hydrogen?

These are HUGE challenges and warrant discussion if we are to have any sort of reasonable and balanced dialogue on the matter.

The public doesnt care about green, that's a media and political talking point. We are self centered not in my backyard human race and no one will be able to live up to the battery powered pipe dream of multiple cars all needing to charge at all times a day in their busy households.

I think you underestimate how convinced the general public is on "climate goals". The line currently being sold is "green" hydrogen, which means electrolysis. Since there isn't any excess methane reformation capacity either, we are starting from scratch regardless of which way this goes but the push right now, is the fantasy that it'll be produced with surplus VRE, which is totally nuts, and introduces more expense because you then have that infrastructure to pay for, lol. And then it's supposed to not impose efficiency challenges running it intermittently? LMAO!! It's a giant joke.

Ive read so many of your posts to know how knowledgeable you are. Im not debating, I learned from your posts, more so nuclear energy which I think you know is my solution to the world energy crisis. I just know as a consumer, a world of Lithium battery vehicles is not going to happen. I do not know the solution but maybe I am crazy, there seems to be much research going on with h2 production and I would think a solution MAY come along OR a totally different technology that we arent discussing here.

As I've said previously, it's insane to push hydrogen fuel cells running on hydrogen produced from methane, using methane, when you can just run a fuel cell on methane, which is easier to handle, we already have the infrastructure in place for, doesn't require insane levels of compression...etc. But that would make too much sense. With hydrogen, you can claim it isn't a fossil fuel, while hand waving away the fact that it came from one, in a process that was also powered by one

With all the above said I do think you will agree, CA and many states are already teetering with an overloaded electric grid I think it will be interesting to see what is going to happen over the next five years.

Yes, this is the direct result of moronic political policies and taking control away from the engineers and operators and giving these decisions to politicians, who are then heavily influenced by advocacy groups who are also clueless about what keeps the grid running.

Also (yeah I know I am repeating myself) I think too many people are dismissing the public being inconvenienced by couple and their kids fighting over who gets to plug their battery operated EV in at night and others worried about which states on holiday weekends will have miles back ups are charging stations...
I LOVE to watch stuff like this unfold. It will be fun to see. I just think, somewhere someone has a solution for the consumer to not have to go backwards in time trying to fuel up. But *LOL* as I say over and over. I want to know where CA in just a few years time will get the electricity to charge up 3,000,000 cars out of 20,000,000 ... and of course more and more every year. I have no idea how fast or slow EV will be adopted but recent projections have been reduced so maybe all this talk is pointless.

It's certainly interesting to watch. BEV's are "easy" and that has allure to the industry. When you start thinking of cars like laptops, phones and tablets, this starts to make sense.

 

[Ws6]

Hydrogen vehicles ARE EVs so it is inaccurate to call them EV haters. Typically those who calls others haters are the haters.

How can you deny this fact?
California electric grid had trouble just last year supporting 600,000 EVs out of 20,000,000 cars. Let's talk again when we get into maybe the 6,000,000 EV mark our of those 20,000,000 cars in CA and how we will get to the 12,000,000 mark after that. Explain the magic formula that is going to make that happen.

It will not happen in our lifetime with lithium battery storage, its just a fact.

Hydrogen vehicles CAN be EV's, and commonly are, true. They are less efficient and just add an explosive compressed gas to the mix. Joy.
Dude, CA can't support itself no-matter what. Neither can Texas. Can't even deal with cold weather on its own. Or hot weather. this isn't because the grid is overloaded, it's because the grid has been minimally maintained by an uninvested board. Fix management, fix the grid, or turning on the window unit will kill it.

 

[Torrid]

You're viewing it from your personal point of view and use. I'm NOT willing to go to a charge station and wait 40 min to charge 50% nor am I willing to spend $3,000 to have a dedicated fast charging plus in my garage., add to that the infrastructure problems. This why is is NOT viable for the majority for it thinks like me.

I don't have a dedicated fast charger in my garage. All you need is an outlet. I made a big point of saying it was my personal point of view and why it works for me. I'm not trying to persuade anyone. I'll put in a 220v soon, but that won't cost much since I have a junction box already in my garage. 220v 30a is plenty and the mobile charger I already have will work with that.

Im just having fun with this, but it's amazing how so many proponents of EVs are against EVs!

Funny. Hydrogen is just inefficient because of the energy it takes to make it. Kind of like gasoline. Weird.

Oh and inefficiency of electric through transmission lines is so much more wasteful than trucks driving fuel across the country to gas stations. They all have losses for sure, but arguing efficiency electricity will win that at every level so much so that gas loses less efficiency in the cold because it already loses a ton of its energy as heat, even when it isn't beneficial to another purpose like heating the cabin.

Just saying, I wouldn't try and use lack of efficiency to lean toward something other than electric, and unfortunately for now hydrogen has a number of the downsides of fuel with even less places to replenish than anything else available on the market today.

 

[alarmguy]

With a hydrogen fuel cell, however, you first have to convert the electricity to hydrogen via electrolysis, which is only 75% efficient. Then the gas has to be compressed, chilled and transported, which loses another 10%. The fuel cell process of converting hydrogen back to electricity is only 60% efficient, after which you have the same 5% loss from driving the vehicle motor as for a BEV. The grand total is a 62% loss – more than three times as much. Or, to put it another way, for every kW of electricity supply, you get 800W for a BEV, but only 380W for an FCV – less than half as much. That’s a huge inefficiency if you’re hoping for a greener future, and doesn’t even take into account the fact that 95% of hydrogen is currently generated from fossil fuel sources.

Yes but generating electricity in a power plant and transmitting it is no different. I think.
From mining oil and gas, to transporting it to a power plant to upgrading the electric grid to support charging multiple vehicles at once in a home to be stored in a battery containing rare and dangerous elements to me the public will not find convenient in time. We all know the general public is very slow to react.

 

[alarmguy]

I don't have a dedicated fast charger in my garage. All you need is an outlet. I made a big point of saying it was my personal point of view and why it works for me. I'm not trying to persuade anyone. I'll put in a 220v soon, but that won't cost much since I have a junction box already in my garage. 220v 30a is plenty and the mobile charger I already have will work with that.

Funny. Hydrogen is just inefficient because of the energy it takes to make it. Kind of like gasoline. Weird.

Oh and inefficiency of electric through transmission lines is so much more wasteful than trucks driving fuel across the country to gas stations. They all have losses for sure, but arguing efficiency electricity will win that at every level so much so that gas loses less efficiency in the cold because it already loses a ton of its energy as heat, even when it isn't beneficial to another purpose like heating the cabin.

Just saying, I wouldn't try and use lack of efficiency to lean toward something other than electric, and unfortunately for now hydrogen has a number of the downsides of fuel with even less places to replenish than anything else available on the market today.

But this is just it, you are (just discussing here) pulling stuff out of "thin air" without presenting how much more efficient producing power burning oil and gas is in a power plant and transmitting that power through the electric grid to a home that can only charge one car at a time in a 3 or 4 car household.
This is what I mean, I dont get all this and that and that and this. What's the difference? The question here is what is more convenient?
Plugging a car, one at a time into an extension cord to "refuel" it. Or pulling into a Shell station and filling up with h2 like you always did with gas?

Until something other is found, the electric grid burning oil and gas and some solar will never, ever, ever, replace the convenience of gasoline in the USA, never. H2 is a possibility or another type of storage but it sure is heck is not going to be lithium.

 

[kschachn]

But this is just it, you are (just discussing here) pulling stuff out of "thin air" without presenting how much more efficient producing power burning oil and gas is in a power plant and transmitting that power through the electric grid to a home that can only charge one car at a time in a 3 or 4 car household.
This is what I mean, I dont get all this and that and that and this. What's the difference? The question here is what is more convenient?
Plugging a car, one at a time into an extension cord to "refuel" it. Or pulling into a Shell station and filling up with h2 like you always did with gas?

Until something other is found, the electric grid burning oil and gas and some solar will never, ever, ever, replace the convenience of gasoline in the USA, never. H2 is a possibility or another type of storage but it sure is heck is not going to be lithium.

Do you read any of the technical information that has been posted in this thread?

No offense but you need to learn some basic thermodynamics before you continue to make posts like this.

 

[alarmguy]

Hydrogen vehicles CAN be EV's, and commonly are, true. They are less efficient and just add an explosive compressed gas to the mix. Joy.
Dude, CA can't support itself no-matter what. Neither can Texas. Can't even deal with cold weather on its own. Or hot weather. this isn't because the grid is overloaded, it's because the grid has been minimally maintained by an uninvested board. Fix management, fix the grid, or turning on the window unit will kill it.

1. But this is my whole argument (in part) The question is why sink the electric grid just to have an electric car?

2. SO you agree gasoline is more efficient than h2? So why are we doing away with it?

3. Saying h2 is less efficient than oil and gas power plants is not correct without a supporting documents of the latest h2 compared to the gas and power plants and lithium batteries.

4, That leads me to again, if everything is so bad why the push to electric?

My op with a "can do" attitude to me is the most realistic approach using h2 instead of letting lithium electric send us back to the Stone Age.

 

[kschachn]

Yes but generating electricity in a power plant and transmitting it is no different other than nuclear power.

Yes it is. Nuclear power is relatively easy to obtain, a stable chemical compound that at best requires reforming and at worst decomposition is completely different.

 

[kschachn]

1. But this is my whole argument (in part) The question is why sink the electric grid just to have an electric car?

2. SO you agree gasoline is more efficient than h2? So why are we doing away with it?

3. Saying h2 is less efficient than oil and gas power plants is not correct without a supporting documents of the latest h2 compared to the gas and power plants and lithium batteries.

4, That leads me to again, if everything is so bad why the push to electric?

My op with a "can do" attitude to me is the most realistic approach using h2 instead of letting lithium electric send us back to the Stone Age.

You still don't get it. Where is this hydrogen coming from? It doesn't spew out of the ground like methane.

And #2, yes all day long. That part we are in fundamental agreement. We are doing away with it for entirely non-technical reasons, and that changes the game.

 

[Marcozi]

I don't think that's true at all. The infrastructure challenges are infinitely more difficult than charging and it's more than twice the cost of gasoline right now. That's what kills it. Electric has only really done well because it's cheaper to operate. That's a huge uphill battle to sell it to people. I'm interested in it and as I said above the closest station to me is over 900 miles away. At least battery electric has the ability to charge in the garage even if there's no stations in driving distance(I would not recommend a battery electric if this is anyone's actual situation).

Show me viable. More expensive energy costs and it actually isn't possible to drive it across the country with current or even likely the infrastructure of 5+ years from now. I would love to see it do well, but if electric isn't ready for prime time(which I don't agree with), hydrogen didn't even make it in the room to pitch the pilot just yet. All I know is I'm sick of sucking fumes of all the idiots that leave their cars running while fueling at this time of year. Makes me not want to even start my VW.

The US has tens of thousands of miles of underground pipeline that supply industrial ammonia to factories. Hydrogen can be extracted from ammonia quite easily. Also, scientists from a major university in Australia have developed a way to extract hydrogen directly from sea water. Yes, an infrastructure will have to be created, but the alternative is even more costly. In the end, electric cars and pickups will be powered by batteries and semi and trains will be powered by hydrogen.

 

[alarmguy]

I'm flattered but it's not my industry, I only am part of it on the advocacy and research side, though I have been accused of being a disgruntled employee by our publicly owned utility OPG, so you aren't the first to assume I work in the industry, lol.

OK, let's dumb this down a bit if you don't mind?

- The hydrogen infrastructure doesn't exist to produce hydrogen, by any means, to power a vehicles at scale. Current methane reformation methods, which run on methane, produce something like 95% of the world's hydrogen, most of which is used BY THE OIL INDUSTRY, as it's a useful and often necessary component for various processes.

- Currently, the lack of hydrogen supply is a BIGGER issue than the lack of electricity. Because we have a massive amount of generation and transmission infrastructure in place already, even if it's not sufficient, at present, to handle millions of EV's, it's already much, MUCH further along than what would be required for hydrogen, which anecdotal examples about there being no hydrogen filling stations, anywhere, in many states as noted earlier in the thread illustrates.

Why?

We use electricity. All of us. We are using it right now. When was the last time you handled pure hydrogen? We don't, people don't handle hydrogen; consumers don't handle hydrogen and the world's supply of hydrogen isn't in any way setup for that to be the case. We don't have sufficient production capacity, transport capacity, handling capacity...etc. There are serious challenges, and, as noted, the whole process is insanely lossy!

There's a massive difference between approving a few big power plants along with Uncle Elon adding some more charging stations vs building DOUBLE the amount of those power plants (see the previous stack of losses as to why), then massive hydrogen production and compression facilities, then you have to transport (truck?) it, and it's far less dense than gasoline/diesel and requires special tanks and it leaks and so you end up with a massive increase in truck traffic trying to move this stuff around, and then you have huge risks with consumers handling THOUSANDS of psi of highly dangerous invisible gas. You can't pump your own propane most locations, how do you think that compares to hydrogen?

These are HUGE challenges and warrant discussion if we are to have any sort of reasonable and balanced dialogue on the matter.

I think you underestimate how convinced the general public is on "climate goals". The line currently being sold is "green" hydrogen, which means electrolysis. Since there isn't any excess methane reformation capacity either, we are starting from scratch regardless of which way this goes but the push right now, is the fantasy that it'll be produced with surplus VRE, which is totally nuts, and introduces more expense because you then have that infrastructure to pay for, lol. And then it's supposed to not impose efficiency challenges running it intermittently? LMAO!! It's a giant joke.

As I've said previously, it's insane to push hydrogen fuel cells running on hydrogen produced from methane, using methane, when you can just run a fuel cell on methane, which is easier to handle, we already have the infrastructure in place for, doesn't require insane levels of compression...etc. But that would make too much sense. With hydrogen, you can claim it isn't a fossil fuel, while hand waving away the fact that it came from one, in a process that was also powered by one

Yes, this is the direct result of moronic political policies and taking control away from the engineers and operators and giving these decisions to politicians, who are then heavily influenced by advocacy groups who are also clueless about what keeps the grid running.

It's certainly interesting to watch. BEV's are "easy" and that has allure to the industry. When you start thinking of cars like laptops, phones and tablets, this starts to make sense.

Good post, gosh, a long one too, glad Im not the only one. Im going to keep this short as Im overwhelmed *LOL*
Lots of great points Ill just list a few of what I "see" and "predict" Doesnt mean I am right, not at all but I have a history, scary history my wife might say of saying things and years later they come true. *LOL* Again, means nothing but sometimes I think the way my brain works with logic may seem illogical to the masses turns into reality. (not kidding)
(think you know by now, I just discuss in BITOG but we all know at times it may not seem that way, because of what I wrote above though I will admit I can be "stubborn" in my thoughts until proven wrong/otherwise.

1. Gasoline will always be the majority of vehicles on the road in America for up to 50 more years unless a convenient and easy way to refuel any other type of vehicle ex. electric or h2 or something not yet known. Americans will not be inconvenienced. Politicians will always cave as soon as the public gets upset about inconvenience.

2. The green movement, once the public, in the coming decade gets educated on what green is no one will care anymore. The only green energy is nuclear or solar. You need both and the USA has a dwindling amount of nuclear. I was at one time proud of my state. I think we still are about 60% nuclear and HAD two more plants being built, shame after billions lost those two plants are lost forever.
Back to the green movement, the public doesnt know what is green only what they see in the media, over long term, the misinformation the media spits out comes back to make them look like fools.
SO what is green in the USA other than nuclear (which ironically some people are against) and solar? I THINK as they learn about the slicing and dicing of up to 50,000 migrating birds on land in the USA every year might to them, not look so green.

I'll post at the end about off shore wind farm plan of my old home town which I dearly used to love until moving south 15 years ago. HUGE MAJOR WIND FARM (OR FARMS) being planned off shore Long Island and I think all over the northeast ocean. Way off shore, they say that from the prestige beach on Long Island you shouldn't or barely be able to see them. The same place where they built a 5 billion dollar nuclear power plant in the 1980s and then shut down spending another 1 billion because they were afraid of evacuation zone. So now they burn gas, politicians.
So this is how the public learns. Off shore wind farms are GREEN, GREEN, GREEN, right? I dont even think they will be slaughtering sea birds as they are far out to sea and if they do no one will see them right?

Oops! Bigger problem now! They haven't started actual construction as far as I know but extensive activities taking place mapping, surveying (I dont pay much attention anymore and not up to date they may have started construction)
However all of a sudden the whole green windmill thing has a MUCH LARGER problem that special interests cant sweep under the rug and it is a MASSIVE PR Nightmare.

So what is the big problem? Strangely all of a sudden HUGE DEAD WHALES are washing up on the beaches... OOPS! ELEVEN dead whales, unheard of, speculation running wild...cant ignore it, these things are giants next to a human, beach goers and reporters one near my old home town. It's a VERY SAD visual for the public. Speculation is due to the activity out there regarding the windmills (I haven't followed up) the public is aware they are killing this beautiful creatures because of their GREEN windmills.

I am sure you know, the public is always out to lunch, they "stuff" happens and they change their mind right away.
I dont know anything green except Nuclear and Solar.

3. Back to EVs Americans are never going to be able to survive with the exception of small households recharging their cars in their driveways at night. For 2,3,4,5 car households, teenagers, college kids would all be fighting over who gets to charge their car.
So the infrastructure for this does not exist from power plant to house, which leads me to say, if its not h2 or some kind of battery car that can be recharged just as fast in a fueling station, gasoline will rule for the next 5 decades. I do think before that time we will come up with the solution, right now some automakers feel h2 is possible. What do I know? They may know more, why are they even bothering if it's a fantasy? Too showboat? I think there is more to it... but Im ignorant except for the fact that nothing is really green except Solar and Nuclear.
Oh and those Ocean Turbines/ 30 year lifespan? Really now.
This is all in fun, Im not saying windmills are the issue but these events do rightfully force the public (hence politicians afraid of the public) to examine what is taking place and just what is green?
(Most recent)
https://www.yahoo.com/now/why-23-dead-whales-washed-124824174.html

To be fair=
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/us-government-agency-says-no-link-dead-whales-wind-farm-development

(previous older news)
https://nypost.com/2023/01/13/7th-dead-whale-washes-up-on-jersey-shore/

BTW- appreciate conversation. Im not the worlds fastest typist. Thankfully burning myself out on this subject and to some degree been staying away from it because it takes me too much time. I had a feeling when I posted that BMW in the OP I would get myself drawn into it!

 

[alarmguy]

The US has tens of thousands of miles of underground pipeline that supply industrial ammonia to factories. Hydrogen can be extracted from ammonia quite easily. Also, scientists from a major university in Australia have developed a way to extract hydrogen directly from sea water. Yes, an infrastructure will have to be created, but the alternative is even more costly. In the end, electric cars and pickups will be powered by batteries and semi and trains will be powered by hydrogen.

Good post
With that said Lithium Batteries will never replace gasoline for the majority of the public. It's not possible to charge 2,3,4 cars in your driveway at night and people are not going to tolerate sitting in one place for 20 min to 1 hour to recharge at a charging station.
Dont misunderstand, maybe one day 30% or more will be able too but it's not going to happen with lithium. I suspect the solution lies a few decades out which at that time, this forum and sadly the people in this forum will no longer exist (gulp!)

 

[OVERKILL]

Yes, the concerns about infrasound causing issues with marine mammals is well-documented and long-standing, it wasn't unexpected for this "turn".

I'm not a fan of wind, as it tends to produce out of phase with demand.

That said, offshore wind has other challenges beyond concerns about whales. The proposed wind farm off the shore of New Jersey, Ocean Wind, is roughly the same price (relative to output) as Vogtle, which is considered a boondoggle, but this wind farm isn't? Selective outrage...

 

[JeffKeryk]

You don't have to charge every day. Many companies offer subsidized or even free charging at work. Schools, libraries, shopping centers and even apartments are getting into the game as well.
While not everyone can do it, there is no more convienient way to fuel up than in your garage while your car is idle.

There is another convenience factor... I spend time doing oil changes, etc. Yesterday I crawled under my Tundra to replace bank 2 after cat O2 sensor. On Sunday I changed the oil in my grand niece's Civic, checked a couple of spark plugs and her brakes.

The simplicity of our EV drivetrain is amazing. Far less to deal with, far less to go wrong.

 

[OVERKILL]

The US has tens of thousands of miles of underground pipeline that supply industrial ammonia to factories. Hydrogen can be extracted from ammonia quite easily.

We've been over the challenges of Ammonia previously in this thread:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/ammonia-is-the-solution.355574/

Also, scientists from a major university in Australia have developed a way to extract hydrogen directly from sea water.

They've been able to use electrolysis without pre-treatment, that's all that is. That doesn't change any of the other challenges pertaining to hydrogen production, compression, transport...etc.

Yes, an infrastructure will have to be created, but the alternative is even more costly. In the end, electric cars and pickups will be powered by batteries and semi and trains will be powered by hydrogen.

We'll see. Electrifying rail may end up being less expensive than hydrogen-powered rail.

 

[kschachn]

We've been over the challenges of Ammonia previously in this thread:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/ammonia-is-the-solution.355574/


They've been able to use electrolysis without pre-treatment, that's all that is. That doesn't change any of the other challenges pertaining to hydrogen production, compression, transport...etc.

We'll see. Electrifying rail may end up being less expensive than hydrogen-powered rail.

Lol ammonia. Yes let’s make one more thing before we make the hydrogen before we make the energy.

 

[Torrid]

But this is just it, you are (just discussing here) pulling stuff out of "thin air" without presenting how much more efficient producing power burning oil and gas is in a power plant and transmitting that power through the electric grid to a home that can only charge one car at a time in a 3 or 4 car household.
This is what I mean, I dont get all this and that and that and this. What's the difference? The question here is what is more convenient?
Plugging a car, one at a time into an extension cord to "refuel" it. Or pulling into a Shell station and filling up with h2 like you always did with gas?

Until something other is found, the electric grid burning oil and gas and some solar will never, ever, ever, replace the convenience of gasoline in the USA, never. H2 is a possibility or another type of storage but it sure is heck is not going to be lithium.

It’s not out of thin air. It looks like it here right now because I don’t have the reports posted now. It gets really deep in the weeds but it’s much farther apart even than I would have thought. It’ll take awhile to compile the data from the sources I’ve seen on this when it’s been discussed everywhere and I can do that at a point to post it here, but currently I’m on call and can’t do that at the moment, but I’d be happy to do so when I get a chance. It’s the reason why even though electric cars have a slightly higher energy cost to build that it beats gas by the time 20k miles is hit. It comes down to the way power is generated is more efficient that millions of running engines and electric is as high as 97% efficient once it’s in the batteries to the wheels to move it. In comparison combustion gasoline engines is around 30%-35% from tank to moving down the road due to thermal wastes.

 

[PimTac]

The US has tens of thousands of miles of underground pipeline that supply industrial ammonia to factories. Hydrogen can be extracted from ammonia quite easily. Also, scientists from a major university in Australia have developed a way to extract hydrogen directly from sea water. Yes, an infrastructure will have to be created, but the alternative is even more costly. In the end, electric cars and pickups will be powered by batteries and semi and trains will be powered by hydrogen.

I have read some articles on the future of hydrogen powered ships. It does seem promising and especially if the hydrogen can be produced from seawater.

 

[Torrid]

The US has tens of thousands of miles of underground pipeline that supply industrial ammonia to factories. Hydrogen can be extracted from ammonia quite easily. Also, scientists from a major university in Australia have developed a way to extract hydrogen directly from sea water. Yes, an infrastructure will have to be created, but the alternative is even more costly. In the end, electric cars and pickups will be powered by batteries and semi and trains will be powered by hydrogen.

Yes this is true but it still takes a lot of energy to extract, compress and store than gasoline right now. It is great tech but just like battery electric really needs even more advances to see more adoption to get those costs down.