BMW Pilot iX5 EV No Batteries, Recharges/H2 Fuels in less than 4 minutes

[BMWTurboDzl]

The greenies don't mention the extensive energy required to produce h2, the extremely low energy content, and that 99% of the hydrogen on earth is bonded to other molecules. We don't live on Jupiter where from what I can tell about 50% of the atmosphere is free standing hydrogen. It is a giant gas ball after all.

The Greenies aren't pushing hydrogen. In any case the calculation between "green" and "dirty" H2 production has been well documented for years.

 

[kschachn]

The Greenies aren't pushing hydrogen. In any case the calculation between "green" and "dirty" H2 production has been well documented for years.

What's a green method of production?

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

What's a green method of production?

https://www.energy.gov/eere/fuelcel...omising option,a unit called an electrolyzer.

 

[97prizm]

(just discussing)
We all have our thoughts on things and I respect yours but Im on the other side of the fence.
Your post is highly speculative to a degree that is too much to discuss which if we were neighbors I could discuss with anyone in a respectful manner.
1. How are infrastructure changes more difficult then charging? Charging is why the current generation of EVs will never carry more registrations than gasoline. We enjoy a higher standard of living in the USA with a vast road network. Americans will always buy convenience and I suggest it's an all out fantasy if anyone thinks a family with a few cars in it are going to rotate cars around to charge them until the day a car can be charged in the same amount of time currently that it takes to fill a gas tank with gas.

2. Second fantasy is the cost involved. To say electric is cheaper if flat out wrong, yes maybe now but let me keep this short with one example. There currently arent any EVs on the road except for a TINY percent. If that much.
Last summer California was running out of electricity, they asked EV owners to hold off charging at certain times. Well, ok, so do the math.
There are only 600,000 EV cars on the road in California out of 20,000,000 (twenty million) vehicles.
Ummmmm ... so ... what happens when there is even only 500% more EVs on the road totaling 3,000,000 out of 20,000,000? One can not honestly think major upgrades to the electric system and power plants are not going to need a HUGE influx of cash to bring the system up to date can they?
Does anyone on planet earth even think CA can support 3,000,000 EVs out of 20,000,000 vehicles today when they cant support 600,000?
So how would we even get to a 30% EV saturation rate (which would mean 6,000,000 EVs) even if people would put up with the major inconvenience of recharging.
Summary = California today doesnt even have enough power to recharge 6,000,000 million golf carts never mind EVs.
Im not picking on CA, just using it as an example since its the more progressive in its push right now.
To think you, being tied to a power plant and one electric company in your state is going to work out for you, I would call it fantasy.

3. For the life of me personally. Even with the above said, Im not sure why people with EVs bring up price anyway. I do understand the "hobby" for some and I CERTAINLY understand the fun factor involved. I LOVE stuff like this but to think mainstream America is going to put up with the inconvenience and the fantasy of cheap electricity for their local electric company whom they already love so much is just "out there"
The electric grid as a nation barely survives as it is in the summertime and somehow EVs are going to replace gasoline? No, it's never going to happen, the people will revolt if they are forced into electricity prices unseen in the history of the world to upgrade the electric infrastructure.

Then all of a sudden h2 starts to look as an easy proposition. One in which the American family can live with, instead of having extension cords running out of their homes charging 2, 3, 4, 5 cars and can only do that one at a time or never mind sitting on a mile long line on the interstate waiting your turn to charge your EV when you can drive to the Shell Station and fill up with h2 in 4 minutes.

SO now we will be in an h2 debate so lets take it further, if its not h2 than gasoline will rule until the day comes that something else is invented.
Th manufacturers know it will be h2
It certainly is not going to be rechargeable battery operated cars based on lithium, nothing better than lead acid EVs of 100 years ago.

I told my aunt and uncle years ago when diesel prices were crazy as they complained about "big oil". I told them you think electricity will be cheap if 100 million electric vehicles are on the road? We don't even produce enough electricity to supply half that many vehicles.

 

[kschachn]

https://www.energy.gov/eere/fuelcel...omising option,a unit called an electrolyzer.

Yeah right. The final step may be "clean" but a process is more than the last production step.

 

[UncleDave]

Hydrogen vehicles ARE EVs so it is inaccurate to call them EV haters. Typically those who calls others haters are the haters.

How can you deny this fact?
California electric grid had trouble just last year supporting 600,000 EVs out of 20,000,000 cars. Let's talk again when we get into maybe the 6,000,000 EV mark our of those 20,000,000 cars in CA and how we will get to the 12,000,000 mark after that. Explain the magic formula that is going to make that happen.

It will not happen in our lifetime with lithium battery storage, its just a fact.

The grid is a lot closer to ready than hydrogen will ever likely be.

California issued 11 flex alerts in 2022. Most were from 4-9PM. Some were 4-10. Lets call it 6 hours per flex for 66 hours.

Out of 8760 hours in a year, being down (and it wasnt down that time- just a warning but lets say it was) 66 hours represents 99.25% uptime.

Almost all car charging is done between midnight and 6AM because thats when its cheapest so the impact was minimal.

A full 10K PSI hydrogen delivery infrastructure is a pipe dream even if one is willing to take on the horrific losses the format requires.

 

[97prizm]

What's a green method of production?

Alot of the environmental publications only make the comments about how H2 only produces water as a byproduct. They fail to mention the tremendous energy to produce and store H2.

 

[OVERKILL]

2. Second fantasy is the cost involved. To say electric is cheaper if flat out wrong, yes maybe now but let me keep this short with one example. There currently arent any EVs on the road except for a TINY percent. If that much.
Last summer California was running out of electricity, they asked EV owners to hold off charging at certain times. Well, ok, so do the math.
There are only 600,000 EV cars on the road in California out of 20,000,000 (twenty million) vehicles.
Ummmmm ... so ... what happens when there is even only 500% more EVs on the road totaling 3,000,000 out of 20,000,000? One can not honestly think major upgrades to the electric system and power plants are not going to need a HUGE influx of cash to bring the system up to date can they?
Does anyone on planet earth even think CA can support 3,000,000 EVs out of 20,000,000 vehicles today when they cant support 600,000?
So how would we even get to a 30% EV saturation rate (which would mean 6,000,000 EVs) even if people would put up with the major inconvenience of recharging.
Summary = California today doesnt even have enough power to recharge 6,000,000 million golf carts never mind EVs.
Im not picking on CA, just using it as an example since its the more progressive in its push right now.
To think you, being tied to a power plant and one electric company in your state is going to work out for you, I would call it fantasy.

Question for you, why do you think hydrogen would be immune to this? What do you think is used to produce "green" hydrogen? Electricity. But instead of using it to charge a battery, you are using it to split water.

Then you have to compress, transport...etc.

It's no less problematic a process, in fact I'd argue it's far MORE problematic.

3. For the life of me personally. Even with the above said, Im not sure why people with EVs bring up price anyway. I do understand the "hobby" for some and I CERTAINLY understand the fun factor involved. I LOVE stuff like this but to think mainstream America is going to put up with the inconvenience and the fantasy of cheap electricity for their local electric company whom they already love so much is just "out there"
The electric grid as a nation barely survives as it is in the summertime and somehow EVs are going to replace gasoline? No, it's never going to happen, the people will revolt if they are forced into electricity prices unseen in the history of the world to upgrade the electric infrastructure.

Then all of a sudden h2 starts to look as an easy proposition. One in which the American family can live with, instead of having extension cords running out of their homes charging 2, 3, 4, 5 cars and can only do that one at a time or never mind sitting on a mile long line on the interstate waiting your turn to charge your EV when you can drive to the Shell Station and fill up with h2 in 4 minutes.

Yes, the current grid is a challenge. As I noted above, it's the same challenge for green hydrogen production. In that sense, given all the other issues with hydrogen, it looks even more problematic than EV's do.

SO now we will be in an h2 debate so lets take it further, if its not h2 than gasoline will rule until the day comes that something else is invented.
Th manufacturers know it will be h2
It certainly is not going to be rechargeable battery operated cars based on lithium, nothing better than lead acid EVs of 100 years ago.

H2 (particularly green H2) is nowhere near as far along as the EV market.

Synfuels is probably the "easiest" option, but that's energy intensive too.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Alot of the environmental publications only make the comments about how H2 only produces water as a byproduct. They fail to mention the tremendous energy to produce and store H2.

Perhaps it's outside the scope of the publication? How do you know this? Do you read them all?

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Yeah right. The final step may be "clean" but a process is more than the last production step.

okay and?

 

[97prizm]

Perhaps it's outside the scope of the publication? How do you know this? Do you read them all?

Alot. I'm very into automotive topics, have looked at the actual science, and have a degree in Journalism, so I tend to filter out more bs and read with a much finer filter than the general public.

 

[97prizm]

Perhaps it's outside the scope of the publication? How do you know this? Do you read them all?

With a hydrogen fuel cell, however, you first have to convert the electricity to hydrogen via electrolysis, which is only 75% efficient. Then the gas has to be compressed, chilled and transported, which loses another 10%. The fuel cell process of converting hydrogen back to electricity is only 60% efficient, after which you have the same 5% loss from driving the vehicle motor as for a BEV. The grand total is a 62% loss – more than three times as much. Or, to put it another way, for every kW of electricity supply, you get 800W for a BEV, but only 380W for an FCV – less than half as much. That’s a huge inefficiency if you’re hoping for a greener future, and doesn’t even take into account the fact that 95% of hydrogen is currently generated from fossil fuel sources.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

With a hydrogen fuel cell, however, you first have to convert the electricity to hydrogen via electrolysis, which is only 75% efficient. Then the gas has to be compressed, chilled and transported, which loses another 10%. The fuel cell process of converting hydrogen back to electricity is only 60% efficient, after which you have the same 5% loss from driving the vehicle motor as for a BEV. The grand total is a 62% loss – more than three times as much. Or, to put it another way, for every kW of electricity supply, you get 800W for a BEV, but only 380W for an FCV – less than half as much. That’s a huge inefficiency if you’re hoping for a greener future, and doesn’t even take into account the fact that 95% of hydrogen is currently generated from fossil fuel sources.

Well ya. As the technology stands today.

In any case hydrogen will been written off but in the meantime if you're an automaker who's interested in preserving jobs and taking advantage of existing IP (Intellectual Property) you're going to ride that horse until the end.

 

[alarmguy]

Alot of the environmental publications only make the comments about how H2 only produces water as a byproduct. They fail to mention the tremendous energy to produce and store H2.

As does the battery operated electrical vehicles. They fail to mention the immense amount of resources required to produce electricity and send it through transmission lines in order to recharge cars on location.
What is the efficiency of that by the time you fuel the power plants and transmit the electricity 25%?

Even with that pathetic efficiency we’re not even capable of doing it. I mean how many times do I have to repeat in the year 2022 California had trouble recharging 600,000 cars how is that going to replace 20 million cars that run on gasoline?

I mean, this is just common sense

 

[kschachn]

Well ya. As the technology stands today.

In any case hydrogen will been written off but in the meantime if you're an automaker who's interested in preserving jobs and taking advantage of existing IP (Intellectual Property) you're going to ride that horse until the end.

It's not really a technology problem, it's a problem with the thermodynamics. You don't just pump hydrogen out of the ground like you do with methane, and it's energy intensive to decompose stable compounds - especially oxides.

 

[Torrid]

Ok, I see we arent really that far apart in our thinking. Not sure if you ever saw any of my posts but I wouldnt even discount an EV for my wife's car which really just sits around since she works from home. But I would only consider that at the right price for the vehicle. 16 years ago I got out of NY and now live where energy is cheap for my main vehicle it will always be gas as I get a lot of bang for the buck for me, driving a mid size SUV in super comfort and also capable to tow up to 5000 lbs at a price that current EVs could not match.
For my main vehicle I will always want a fairly good size SUV and could never tolerate refueling it more than a few minutes at a time, my budget will suspect that will always mean gasoline for something like this as well but as I said, a second vehicle? At the right price maybe.

Either way I cant help feel something better will come along in the EV world future, if we only knew what. With that said the battery EV, we know limitations, we dont know those of h2 yet as that would be something the energy companies would figure out if it is plausible and not the concern of government, public and private utility companies ... which as we know tend to be always lacking in foresight.

That was the extra push. My wife doesn't work from home but she works 4 miles from the house. The never getting up to temp on the Edge was really taking its toll mechanically. It would sit and if lucky would get 1 longer trip every month or two, not to mention getting 12 mpg with this practice. She was averaging 3k miles a year and when did take it on trips it wouldn't better the F150 we had by much, not to mention it kept breaking down so we didn't trust it on long trips either. The Tesla has been great for us and actually gets driven more than the Edge did because I use it for my short trips too. I really only drive the GTI to work which I'll be doing tonight and will be about 120 miles round trip for where I got called to. If my wife didn't need her car I'd be tempted to take it for these trips and I don't want the GTI short tripped anyway. It really has me considering getting one too. This drive based on their effiencies would be about $14 in the GTI and at worst case in the Tesla if it was really cold out would be half the battery and $5 to charge at home. It doesn't sound like much, but then take that to 5 times a week and keep expanding from there.

Just to put into perspective tonight isn't common. Maybe once a week. Sometimes it's 225 miles round trip, though my employer pays for a hotel for those trips and there is a supercharger a couple miles from the hotel for the return trip. My normal location is 70 miles round trip. I know I'm not the average driver because of this, but I'm also not at the far extreme end of being on the road all the time and at least in few times I've tested the theory for me it's been excellent. I'm just not going to be the jerk and steal my wife's car.

 

[Pelican]

I don't think that's true at all. The infrastructure challenges are infinitely more difficult than charging and it's more than twice the cost of gasoline right now. That's what kills it. Electric has only really done well because it's cheaper to operate. That's a huge uphill battle to sell it to people. I'm interested in it and as I said above the closest station to me is over 900 miles away. At least battery electric has the ability to charge in the garage even if there's no stations in driving distance(I would not recommend a battery electric if this is anyone's actual situation).

Show me viable. More expensive energy costs and it actually isn't possible to drive it across the country with current or even likely the infrastructure of 5+ years from now. I would love to see it do well, but if electric isn't ready for prime time(which I don't agree with), hydrogen didn't even make it in the room to pitch the pilot just yet. All I know is I'm sick of sucking fumes of all the idiots that leave their cars running while fueling at this time of year. Makes me not want to even start my VW.

You're viewing it from your personal point of view and use. I'm NOT willing to go to a charge station and wait 40 min to charge 50% nor am I willing to spend $3,000 to have a dedicated fast charging plus in my garage., add to that the infrastructure problems. This why is is NOT viable for the majority for it thinks like me.

 

[UncleDave]

https://insideevs.com/news/406676/battery-electric-hydrogen-fuel-cell-efficiency-comparison/

 

[alarmguy]

As does the battery operated electrical vehicles. They fail to mention the immense amount of resources required to produce electricity and send it through transmission lines in order to recharge cars on location.
What is the efficiency of that by the time you fuel the power plants and transmit the electricity 25%?

Question for you, why do you think hydrogen would be immune to this? What do you think is used to produce "green" hydrogen? Electricity. But instead of using it to charge a battery, you are using it to split water.

Then you have to compress, transport...etc.

It's no less problematic a process, in fact I'd argue it's far MORE problematic.

Yes, the current grid is a challenge. As I noted above, it's the same challenge for green hydrogen production. In that sense, given all the other issues with hydrogen, it looks even more problematic than EV's do.

H2 (particularly green H2) is nowhere near as far along as the EV market.

Synfuels is probably the "easiest" option, but that's energy intensive too.

First let me say I know nothing about your industry and without question I acknowledge your expertise in electricity.

With that said. Im not so sure I imply, well maybe I do that h2 is "immune"
As far as more problematic, that may or may not be true, I dont think we know what the major energy companies can come up with regarding h2 vs electric utilities revamping the entire electrical network of the USA. Energy companies are not just going to close up shop and go away.
So I think for the consumer they will find it much more easy to fill up on h2 vs try to charge multiple vehicles at their homes at night. It's just not possible but it will be possible to recharge your h2 like you fill your gas tank now.
Nor will the public want to sit at charging stations to recharge cars vs almost filling up a tank like they did with gasoline.

The public doesnt care about green, that's a media and political talking point. We are self centered not in my backyard human race and no one will be able to live up to the battery powered pipe dream of multiple cars all needing to charge at all times a day in their busy households.

Ive read so many of your posts to know how knowledgeable you are. Im not debating, I learned from your posts, more so nuclear energy which I think you know is my solution to the world energy crisis. I just know as a consumer, a world of Lithium battery vehicles is not going to happen. I do not know the solution but maybe I am crazy, there seems to be much research going on with h2 production and I would think a solution MAY come along OR a totally different technology that we arent discussing here.

With all the above said I do think you will agree, CA and many states are already teetering with an overloaded electric grid I think it will be interesting to see what is going to happen over the next five years.
Also (yeah I know I am repeating myself) I think too many people are dismissing the public being inconvenienced by couple and their kids fighting over who gets to plug their battery operated EV in at night and others worried about which states on holiday weekends will have miles back ups are charging stations...
I LOVE to watch stuff like this unfold. It will be fun to see. I just think, somewhere someone has a solution for the consumer to not have to go backwards in time trying to fuel up. But *LOL* as I say over and over. I want to know where CA in just a few years time will get the electricity to charge up 3,000,000 cars out of 20,000,000 ... and of course more and more every year. I have no idea how fast or slow EV will be adopted but recent projections have been reduced so maybe all this talk is pointless.

 

[alarmguy]

Im just having fun with this, but it's amazing how so many proponents of EVs are against EVs!