BMW Longlife Question

[BobFout]

Originally Posted By: MCompact
I've run both M1 0W-40 and 5W-40 TDT in my wife's X3 2.5. The UOAs indicate that the TBN of either oil drops below 1.5 by 8500-9500 miles. Accordingly, I change the oil twice as often as the SI system calls for.


Holy cow. Those are both 11 TBN oils.

 

[EricJRoy]

dropping to 1.5 indicates that going past 5000 OCI can be risky with oils then right?

 

[jpr]

Originally Posted By: EricJRoy
dropping to 1.5 indicates that going past 5000 OCI can be risky with oils then right?
Err, not really. The example cited above was citing 8500-9500 miles to get to 1.5. The typical Blackstone marker for a "low" TBN is 1.0.

Based on data from various users UOA's here, on average M54's on BMW 5W-30 have a TBN of 2.6 @ 8400 miles (std dev of 1.6 and 3500). I've never seen a UOA on an M54 with a TBN of under 1.0 at 5000 miles.

A good strategy would be to take your own sample at 1/2 the indicated service interval and see how your own car handles the oil based on your operating conditions then make plans accordingly.

 

[Scout1]

The last time the oil was changed was last September per the previous owner so I dumped it and went with the GC and a Wix filter. I plan to sample it at 5k (my planned next change) to see where the motor is at. Hummm... that 7 qt sump sure puts a dent in the old stash!

Now if I can just figure out the steering on this crazy Z4... Electronic steering sucks and I'm reading about lots of issues with it.

 

[emaax]

sludge is more derived from things like...

more determinant points:
- those 1 or 2 degree tolerance variation of the ignition point variations,
- ecu fuel trims variations,
- sensors specs variations
- too loose timing belts that mess with the ignition timing
- driving style gearbox use mainly ( low reductions = more idles in 'auto's)
- coolant thermostat specs (below factory value)
- oxygen sensor quality and condition (dirty clogged)
- initial break-in driving style (cylinder bore condition and piston ring wear)

less determinant points:
- type of vehicle use
- weather conditions (temperature)
- number of cold starts

... then of the oil quality it self

 

[Trajan]

Originally Posted By: Scout1

Now if I can just figure out the steering on this crazy Z4... Electronic steering sucks and I'm reading about lots of issues with it.


Don't say it too loud. Mine might hear you.

 

[BullyT]

My '99 BMW 740iL has 250,000 km on it (4.4 litre DOHC V-8). I run GC, and change the oil every 15-17,000 km. Engine is clean--no sign of sludge or deposits of any sort. Pulled pan to inspect oil pump a while ago and everything was spotless. Car doesn't burn any oil, engine is quiet and smooth and running better than ever.

I live north of Toronto, so the car gets plenty of cold weather driving, stop and go traffic, etc. With a premium long-life oil changing it at 5,000 miles is a waste of time and money.

 

[Audi Junkie]

You only need a long-life oil for extended intervals.


Originally Posted By: fdcg27
That is a cool tool!
Interesting how API SM isn't even close to BMW LL-98.


It is possible for a product to exceed the labeled designations, such as SM oils, semi synthetics and even some otc synthetics. Take the comparison of Mobil 1 0w-40 and regular Mobil 1, both are pretty good, from the same product line, but you also have to say regular Mobil 1 is better than the SM spec it's brewed against. People use regular Mobil 1 in BMWs all the time, in an uninformed method, and no real problems.

Other oils like HD or blends can and do meet generic ACEA specs* w/o being tested against it for the label. I could run the newest oem spec low saps oil in some of the applications I have now, but am going with some highly additized synthetic race and HD oils instead, despite the spec comparator!

So, the spec comparator is one thing, but it doesn't tell you everything about every oil, like the ones I mentioned as well as AMSoil and Redline too. I'm pretty sure what we get here as "Edge", is an stronger and better version of the latest Euro spec oils. "Ultra", what's that marketed for, SM spec Colbalts w/olms? It might just work in a Euro application, just like other SM spec oils.

*GTX 10w-30 and Castrol Start-Up meet A3 in Europe and Delo 15w-40 carried A3 before in USA as well.

 

[Jorge]

It's all speculation if it hasn't been tested to a specific industry spec. Euro and U.S. oils of the same or similar name can be completely different formulas so never assume anything without proper oil certification/approval.

It's virtually impossible to tell if any oil meets or exceeds an oil spec or is appropriate for a given application without actual oil sequence testing of said oil.

 

[Trajan]

Originally Posted By: Jorge
It's all speculation if it hasn't been tested to a specific industry spec. Euro and U.S. oils of the same or similar name can be completely different formulas so never assume anything without proper oil certification/approval.

It's virtually impossible to tell if any oil meets or exceeds an oil spec or is appropriate for a given application without actual oil sequence testing of said oil.


If an oil company doesn't spend the time and money to have the OEM test it, how would it know it meets the requirements? Plus, if it did really met the requirements then it would be an approved oil and on the list.

M1 HM 10w-40 is ACEA A3, but not LL-01, so they don't claim that it either meets or exceeds the spec, while their 0w-40 does meet A3 and LL-01, thus making the list.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: Trajan
Plus, if it did really met the requirements then it would be an approved oil and on the list.

Only if the formulator pays for the testing and approval.

 

[Audi Junkie]

Originally Posted By: Trajan
Originally Posted By: Jorge
It's all speculation if it hasn't been tested to a specific industry spec. Euro and U.S. oils of the same or similar name can be completely different formulas so never assume anything without proper oil certification/approval.

It's virtually impossible to tell if any oil meets or exceeds an oil spec or is appropriate for a given application without actual oil sequence testing of said oil.


If an oil company doesn't spend the time and money to have the OEM test it, how would it know it meets the requirements? Plus, if it did really met the requirements then it would be an approved oil and on the list.

M1 HM 10w-40 is ACEA A3, but not LL-01, so they don't claim that it either meets or exceeds the spec, while their 0w-40 does meet A3 and LL-01, thus making the list.



You've just made a ton of assumptions on how oils gain formal approval.

There is plenty material posted on the site on the subject.

There's also no reason that M1 HM will not perform adequately in a BMW, just none.

 

[Trajan]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: Trajan
Plus, if it did really met the requirements then it would be an approved oil and on the list.

Only if the formulator pays for the testing and approval.

well, yeah

So much easier to make a claim than to prove it.

Cheaper in some cases too.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

The BMW Test Sequence (2004):

Engine Type and Tests Performed
N52 (6 cyl) - Fe, Aeration, Oil Test. (Focus is on Valvetronic)
N42 (4 cyl) - RNT for Fe

http://www.eng.rpi-inc.ru/materials/26/neo364/DAY2/SESSION5/TNasch.pdf

 

[Pidziek]

BMW LL-04 will be the best oil Amsoil 5W-40!

 

[Trajan]

LL-04 isn't meant for use over here last I heard.

 

[m37charlie]

Originally Posted By: Trajan
LL-04 isn't meant for use over here last I heard.


Except for the diesels. And in my limited experience with it so far it has insufficient alkalinity, at least for an 11600mi OCI in an X5 35d. Which is why I'm going to try Delvac 1 LE 5W30, an E6/E4/E7/MB228.5/51 oil. Also in a 2009 Jetta TDI calling for 507 oil.

Charlie

 

[Trajan]

Originally Posted By: m37charlie
Originally Posted By: Trajan
LL-04 isn't meant for use over here last I heard.


Except for the diesels. And in my limited experience with it so far it has insufficient alkalinity, at least for an 11600mi OCI in an X5 35d. Which is why I'm going to try Delvac 1 LE 5W30, an E6/E4/E7/MB228.5/51 oil. Also in a 2009 Jetta TDI calling for 507 oil.

Charlie


Drat, forgot the diesels.

 

[sprintman]

LL04 not to be used here either. Low SAPS oil like Castrol Edge Sport 0W40 not for Australia/NZ petrol engined BMW's.

 

[330indy]

Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie
Originally Posted By: Trajan

M1 HM 10w-40 is ACEA A3, but not LL-01, so they don't claim that it either meets or exceeds the spec, while their 0w-40 does meet A3 and LL-01, thus making the list.




There's also no reason that M1 HM will not perform adequately in a BMW, just none.


Agree. I use the 10-40 M1 HM in the 530i. With 115k it runs smooth and quiet. Use LubroMoly 5-40 Voll-Synthese in the 330i, which with Dinan parts I run more hard--- and generally blow off the LL-01 oils as I do not run extended OCIs.