BMW LL04 Dissapeering?

[Bailes1992]

Noticed that 3 oils I use quite regularly have all lost BMW LL04 approval recently.

A very brief look over some data sheets and it seems quite a few oils have lost approvals.

Castrol Edge 5w30 LL
Castrol Edge 5w40 Dexos2
Castrol Edge 0w30 Dexos2
Castrol Magnatec C3 5w40
Castrol Magnatec C3 5w30
Mobil1 5w30 ESP
Mobil1 0w30 ESP
Fuchs Titan GT1 XTL 5w40

I get the feeling that with M1 FS 0w40 loosing LL01 followed Castrol 0w40 A3/B4 and now seeing oils loose LL04 that BMW are trying to drop their high HTHS oils in favour of lower viscosity alternatives?

 

[OZHSV]

Pennzoil have one:

https://www.pennzoil.com/en_us/products/full-synthetic-motor-oils/pennzoil-platinum-euro.html

I'd probably look at the liqui-moly range too.

Edit - my mistake, the PP meets spec, but no approval.

 

[kschachn]

Just use Castrol 0W-40 or Mobil 1 0W-40 or anything you can get with Porsche A40 approval. A40 is at least as demanding as Longlife-04 or more so.

 

[Bailes1992]

Originally Posted by kschachn
Just use Castrol 0W-40 or Mobil 1 0W-40 or anything you can get with Porsche A40 approval. A40 is at least as demanding as Longlife-01 or more so.


While LL04 is suitable in an LL01 application, LL01 isn't suitable where LL04 is required.

I just use an ACEA C3 oil in our 320d, I just found it interesting that LL04 was dropping like flies.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

BMW has moved their fleet to oils which have a HTHS under 3.5. LL12FE, LL14FE+, LL17FE+ are the most recent specs. Never fear however because many previous BMW engines can run one or more of these new specifications.

https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/f32-435i-cou/repair-manuals/00-maintenance-general-note/1PSryV8

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted by Bailes1992
While LL04 is suitable in an LL01 application, LL01 isn't suitable where LL04 is required.

What makes it unsuitable?

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by kschachn
Originally Posted by Bailes1992
While LL04 is suitable in an LL01 application, LL01 isn't suitable where LL04 is required.

What makes it unsuitable?

LL01 is High-SAPS oil. Cannot be used in diesel engines with DPF or gasoline with GPF. He is in Wales, high probability it is diesel engine.

 

[Bailes1992]

Originally Posted by kschachn
Originally Posted by Bailes1992
While LL04 is suitable in an LL01 application, LL01 isn't suitable where LL04 is required.

What makes it unsuitable?


Increased carbon deposits and blocked DPF's due to elevated SAPS.

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted by Bailes1992
Increased carbon deposits and blocked DPF's due to elevated SAPS.

Ahha OK thanks. Does that apply to all Longlife-04 spec engines or just some? There are gasoline engines that are/were speced LL-04, right?

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by kschachn
Originally Posted by Bailes1992
Increased carbon deposits and blocked DPF's due to elevated SAPS.

Ahha OK thanks. Does that apply to all Longlife-04 spec engines or just some? There are gasoline engines that are/were speced LL-04, right?

Generally in Europe after 2005 most BMW's are recommended for LL04 as sulfur levels in gas are lower. LL04 is good where ULSG is used.

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted by edyvw
Generally in Europe after 2005 most BMW's are recommended for LL04 as sulfur levels in gas are lower. LL04 is good where ULSG is used.

Yeah, I agree. I just didn't know that in a gasoline engine the high SAPS oils were detrimental.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by kschachn
Originally Posted by edyvw
Generally in Europe after 2005 most BMW's are recommended for LL04 as sulfur levels in gas are lower. LL04 is good where ULSG is used.

Yeah, I agree. I just didn't know that in a gasoline engine the high SAPS oils were detrimental.

According to Lubrizol study in VW EA888 1st gen engine, VW 504.00/507.00 oils (Low-SAPS) left 167% less deposits on intake valves (I think it was intake) than VW 502.00 (Full-SAPS) oil.

 

[drtyler]

Do you remember if that was a US or Euro spec engine? Seems like the Euro engines have a single port fuel injector in order to keep things cleaner, where the US versions do not. May be confusing with later version, but I thought you might know.

Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by kschachn
Originally Posted by edyvw
Generally in Europe after 2005 most BMW's are recommended for LL04 as sulfur levels in gas are lower. LL04 is good where ULSG is used.

Yeah, I agree. I just didn't know that in a gasoline engine the high SAPS oils were detrimental.

According to Lubrizol study in VW EA888 1st gen engine, VW 504.00/507.00 oils (Low-SAPS) left 167% less deposits on intake valves (I think it was intake) than VW 502.00 (Full-SAPS) oil.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted by edyvw
According to Lubrizol study in VW EA888 1st gen engine, VW 504.00/507.00 oils (Low-SAPS) left 167% less deposits on intake valves (I think it was intake) than VW 502.00 (Full-SAPS) oil.

That's some pretty fancy math.

 

[dbias]

Originally Posted by Garak
Originally Posted by edyvw
According to Lubrizol study in VW EA888 1st gen engine, VW 504.00/507.00 oils (Low-SAPS) left 167% less deposits on intake valves (I think it was intake) than VW 502.00 (Full-SAPS) oil.

That's some pretty fancy math.


Was the last 67% valve metal?

 

[Garak]

Had to have been.

Lubrizol used the wrong chemical.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by Garak
Originally Posted by edyvw
According to Lubrizol study in VW EA888 1st gen engine, VW 504.00/507.00 oils (Low-SAPS) left 167% less deposits on intake valves (I think it was intake) than VW 502.00 (Full-SAPS) oil.

That's some pretty fancy math.

LOL, I am just messenger.

 

[JAG]

x is full SAPS valve deposit weight.
y is VW 504/507 deposit weight.

Suppose that y is 167% less than x.
y = x - 1.67x = -0.67x
That's a negative weight, which is impossible.

What is physically possible is that x is 167% larger than y:
x = y + 1.67y = 2.67y
Let's suppose that's true and determine what percentage reduction that y is from x.
Solve for y:
y = 0.375x
Put in proper form for percent reduction:
y = x - 0.625x
If the supposition is true, y is approximately 62.5% less than x.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by JAG
x is full SAPS valve deposit weight.
y is VW 504/507 deposit weight.

Suppose that y is 167% less than x.
y = x - 1.67x = -0.67x
That's a negative weight, which is impossible.

What is physically possible is that x is 167% larger than y:
x = y + 1.67y = 2.67y
Let's suppose that's true and determine what percentage reduction that y is from x.
Solve for y:
y = 0.375x
Put in proper form for percent reduction:
y = x - 0.625x
If the supposition is true, y is approximately 62.5% less than x.

Seriously dude, you really think I do not know 167% less is impossible?
What Lubrizol wanted to say, I guess is that VW502.00 leaves 167% more deposits.
It could be that I read it wrong too, but I GET the numbers.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted by edyvw
LOL, I am just messenger.

Absolutely. That's what happens, though, when they let the marketers get their hands on presentations and the like.