BMW LL Certified Oils?

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Hey guys,

My buddy has an 03' Mini Cooper, and the owner's manual says it is preferred to use LL-01 certified oil, and if that is not available then LL-98 oil should be used.

So here's the funny thing... I called the Mini dealer, and they said that they exclusively use Castrol Syntec 5W-30 for all the Minis. So I got that oil for my friend, to do his oil change. I look at the bottle just before dumping it in, and there's nothing about BMW LL-98 or LL-01 on it, lol. Whats up with that?

A) Can someone fill me in on what the different LL ratings mean? Like, LL-98, LL-01, LL-04, etc.

B) Can someone list some common oils that meet these specs. I checked on the Pennzoil website, but it doesn't say. I assume PP 5W-30 probably meets it.
 
Originally Posted By: jpr
(A) https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/bmw-longlife-approval-requirements.82108/

(B) Most common ones are Castrol 0W30 aka "German Castrol" and Mobil 1 0W40


I see... thank you. To be honest, all that technical mumbo-jumbo really doesn't mean much to me, lol.

My real question is, why does Mini use Castrol Syntec 5W-30 if it is not BMW LL certified? I believe that BMW dealers around here use it too.
 
Short answer is that it shouldn't.

The confusion comes from Castrol being the one that makes the BMW 5W30 synthetic. People get a little bit smart with that bit of trivia, then jump to the erroneous conclusion that the Castrol Syntec 5W30 must be the same thing.

The BMW branded oil (known as "TXT Softec LL-01" in other parts of the world) is an ACEA A3 class oil, which means it has a High Temperature/High Shear viscosity of at least 3.5. The big issue with using the Syntec 5W30 is that it is an ACEA A1 oil with an HT/HS viscosity of just 2.92.
 
so your saying that they do NOT use syntec 5W-30 at the dealer? they use their own BMW oil, which is a 5W-30 grade, and is made by castrol?

and therefore, the service adviser at the dealer made a misinformed comment by telling me that they use "syntec" oil specifically?
 
Originally Posted By: BennyL
so your saying that they do NOT use syntec 5W-30 at the dealer? they use their own BMW oil, which is a 5W-30 grade, and is made by castrol?

and therefore, the service adviser at the dealer made a misinformed comment by telling me that they use "syntec" oil specifically?
Correct on all counts.
 
Since you are in Toronto, you may have more access to Elf (or Total) brand oils than most of the US. The ELF Excellium Full Tech 0W/30 is a BMW/Mini LL-01 rated oil. The Elf Excellium 5W/40NF is a BMW/Mini LL-98 rated oil.

Both oils are in the process of being rebranded as Total Quartz Energy 9000 oils - same product but new name and bottle. See link to Elf-Canada site.

http://www.elflubricants.ca/
 
sure, but my friend just used syntec at 6 bucks a quart for his oil change last week, something tells me he's not gonna want to spend 14 bucks a quart for elf. although i did find a 5W-30 that is LL-04 approved for $9, which is much more reasonable. its made by liqui-moly.
 
I had the same discussion with the knuckleheads at the BMW 'Service Center' regarding my 2006 Z4 in my area. According to the manual, states you must use LL01 oil with Certifications x, y, z.... In the same paragraph, it says to use Castrol (BMW-branded) 5W30. This oil, according to its label and online data sheets, has no such ratings or certifications. Thus, the BMW manual basically says use anything, as far as I'm concerned. To complicate the issue, the 'free maintenance oil changes' done at this stealership is done with 10W30 Castrol GTX in bulk drums. Saw it myself and pitched a fit. They are using Castrol GTX with a lube oil monitoring system that has oil changes at 15K plus. Incredible. I myself do use the stated BMW oil. I got four cases for heap cheap. I change it every 5K and sleep sound. Once gone, I'll be using real synthetic oil rated LL01/04, Amsoil European 5W40.
 
Originally Posted By: BennyL
.... something tells me he's not gonna want to spend 14 bucks a quart for elf. ....


Yowsa!

I pay less than $6USD per litre for the 5W/40 across the border here in Michigan, and Total/Elf is a very rare oil only carried in specialty shops. I assumed the $CND/litre would be similar or less because Total/Elf has broader distribution in Canada.
 
Just FYI many people seem to run non-LL-xx oils in BMWs with excellent results even on newer cars and I'd bet money they would work perfectly well in a Mini as well. There does not in particular seem to be anything special or even above average about the BMW-labeled 5W-30, for example, and just to throw out a couple of possibilities GC 0W-30 or any of the PAO Amsoil products in the appropriate grades would probably be substantially superior choices. Not that I'd limit myself to top-shelf oils like those: many ordinary off-the-shelf Grp III/IV synthetics would fit the bill, and even that is likely overkill for a normal North American OCI (<7500mi).
 
Quote:
Just FYI many people seem to run non-LL-xx oils in BMWs with excellent results even on newer cars and I'd bet money they would work perfectly well in a Mini as well.


I agree with glennc. And a few of my thoughts on the issue.

The problem facing BMW and their use of their own oil spec's, is that they are specifying some very long oil change intervals -- 15K miles in many cases. From BMW's perspective, they are going to want oils that are up to the task of these long drain intervals -- so they make up their own specification to try and make sure the oils used can go the distance. From the various oil manufacturers perspective, having all these different oil specifications from different auto manufacturers are a "pain" and an additional cost to get them certified. There are probably quite a few synthetics out there that could meet LL-01 if the oil manufacturer was willing to jump through the hoops to certify them -- but many are not. And as pointed out, there are oils out there that likely better than some of the LL-01 oils.

So what do you do?

I think a good alternative to doing a 15k mile OCI, which many here will consider too long in some cases (and some would consider way too long) even with the BMW certified oils, is to just use any off-the-shelf synthetic and cut the OCI down to something like 8 - 10k miles.

Another alternative is to just use any conventional 5W-30 (SM/GF-4) oil and cut the oil change down to the 5-6k mile range -- maybe even longer with a UOA. I think the Group II/II+ based SM oils are very compelling from a price/performance POV.

What about meeting the HTHS of 3.5 of LL-01? I think the widespread use of 5W-20's, and that fact that many new manufactures specifying 5W-30 where in the past they spec'd 5W-40, and the good results of these lower viscosity weights, indicates that the oil specifications (for HTHS) many auto manufacturers were working with in the past were on the conservative side. We've seen many engines back spec'd to 5W-20. And we've seen posts here with people concerned about towing a 7,000 lb trailer with their F-150 in 100F weather that specifies 5W-20. Well, apparently the engineers at Ford are confident these oils are up to the task. AEHaas has used a 20 weight in his Ferrari and states that the new Ferrari's are being shipped with 5W-30 (as opposed to the previous 40 weights).

Quote:
AEHaas …

I personally used 0W-20 Mobil 1 in the 575 Maranello and for the first oil change I drained the Murcielago’s (OEM) 5W-40 Agip and replaced it with 0W-30 Mobil 1. The engine became much quieter. A valve tappet noise disappeared. I am now using the 5W-20 Red Line in the Lamborghini. Used oil analysis shows that this oil works well for my non racetrack application. The same oil went into my Maybach 57. My Enzo Ferrari calls for the Shell Helix Ultra racing 10W-60 but I am using the Castrol Syntec European Formula 0W-30. This is different than the easy to find plain 0W-30 Syntec. It MUST say European Formula across the front of the label. I buy it at AutoZone stores but it is often mixed with the plain stuff.

I called up FNA and was told that all new Ferrari cars are delivered with 5W-30 Shell Helix Ultra.


The 5W-30's that meet HTHS of 3.5 are usually basically just meeting that spec with a KV of around 11.5 - 12.0 cSt. Dropping down to a conventional 5W-30 at 10.5 cSt just isn't going to make much difference. If you were tracking the car in 100F weather -- one might be a little concerned if the oil temperatures were very high, but for street use the slightly lower viscosity just isn't going to be an issue. And seeing how well the 5W-20's are performing also gives me confidence that 30 weights are more than up to the task.

If the BMW dealers aren't obsessing over LL-01 and are just using a Syntec 5W-30 that doesn't meet that spec., then this says to me that using any 5W-30 (with some appropriate oil change interval) will just be fine.
 
Everytime our E39 gets an oil change at a shop I can tell they're not using a LL-01 oil. The car usually nevers uses oil but will be down 2qts in 5k. And the cheapo oil leaves this nasty red varnish on the oil cap, GC never does that.
ymmv
 
I believe the critical question one needs to ask and answer to yourself is "What to I expect to gain from using a non-BMW approved oil?"
 
Originally Posted By: jpr
I believe the critical question one needs to ask and answer to yourself is "What to I expect to gain from using a non-BMW approved oil?"


what does that even mean? nobody is looking to "gain" from not using an LL-approved oil... clearly, it is much easier to purchase a non-approved oil and usually cheaper.
 
Look at it as an exercise in risk management.

When you use an oil that has been BMW approved, there is almost no uncertainty about it's suitability for and performance in your BMW engine. These oils have met or exceeded an extensive set of specific performance criteria set by BMW for both laboratory and engine tests.

It is entirely possible for an oil to meet or exceed all those performance standards without having been specifically tested and approved by BMW. But without the BMW approval, there will always be a certain amount of uncertainty about the issue.

With other oils, it is clear that they do not meet the BMW standards: HT/HS is too low. Kv100 is too low or too high. Kv40 is too low or too high, deposit levels are too high, etc. Whatever the reason or reasons may be, the further you deviate from the known properties of BMW approved oils, the greater the uncertainty about the suitability of that oil.

So that's why the question is, what is it you expect to gain to from using a non-BMW approved oil and is it sufficient to compensate for the consequent increase in uncertainty?

How much money do you need to save per oil change to offset the uncertainty regarding the performance of that product in your engine? Or how much are you enamored with the claims of a "boutique" oil to accept it's uncertain suitability?

Everybody can and will weigh the question a little a bit differently and make their own judgement, but it would be foolish to pretend the question does not exist.
 
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