BMW LL 04 Not suitable for BMW petrol engines
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I think it was discussed somewhere on the board and it had something to do with the ethanol content of US (and/or non-euro) gas. Not sure why that would matter, but I'm pretty sure that's the explaination.
EDIT: Here's some more info.
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/using-vw-mb-bmw-specs-to-find-the-right-oil.119508/
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/using-vw-mb-bmw-specs-to-find-the-right-oil.119508/
An official BMW TIS document in one of those links says (in regards to LL-04 oils) "They must not be used outside this area (the EU, Switzerland, Norway and Liechtenstein) as problems are often encountered with fuel quality"
EDIT: Here's some more info.
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/using-vw-mb-bmw-specs-to-find-the-right-oil.119508/
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/using-vw-mb-bmw-specs-to-find-the-right-oil.119508/
An official BMW TIS document in one of those links says (in regards to LL-04 oils) "They must not be used outside this area (the EU, Switzerland, Norway and Liechtenstein) as problems are often encountered with fuel quality"
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LL-04 might not be the best oil outside of Europe, especially for long oil change intervals - have a look at this discussion and post from Jag:
Originally Posted By: JAG
The starting TBNs of LL-04 oils are generally lower than for LL-01 oils. Sulfur in gasoline is a big cause of TBN depletion. Low TBN with ethanol laden gasoline further increases the chance of engine corrosion. I think that BMW does not think LL-04 oils in general can hold up in all states in the U.S. for their recommended OCIs/time intervals at a high enough frequency. MB has recently changed back to a higher TBN oil specification (229.5) in the U.S. and their reason was they found unsatisfactory engine protection with MB 229.51 spec oils here and said it was due to the ethanol in gasoline.
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/posts/1486305/
Originally Posted By: JAG
The starting TBNs of LL-04 oils are generally lower than for LL-01 oils. Sulfur in gasoline is a big cause of TBN depletion. Low TBN with ethanol laden gasoline further increases the chance of engine corrosion. I think that BMW does not think LL-04 oils in general can hold up in all states in the U.S. for their recommended OCIs/time intervals at a high enough frequency. MB has recently changed back to a higher TBN oil specification (229.5) in the U.S. and their reason was they found unsatisfactory engine protection with MB 229.51 spec oils here and said it was due to the ethanol in gasoline.
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/posts/1486305/
There was a jag of enthusiasm recently for trying Mobil 1 ESP Formula 5W30, a LL04/229.51/ACEA C3 oil; in engines that don't need it. I pointed out that theses oils are compromises to protect diesel emission systems. There were those that held them as miraculous improvements, even better than Mobil 1 0W40.
It looks like according to BMW and Castrol I was right.
Charlie
It looks like according to BMW and Castrol I was right.
Charlie
Originally Posted By: m37charlie
There was a jag of enthusiasm recently for trying Mobil 1 ESP Formula 5W30, a LL04/229.51/ACEA C3 oil; in engines that don't need it. I pointed out that theses oils are compromises to protect diesel emission systems. There were those that held them as miraculous improvements, even better than Mobil 1 0W40.
It looks like according to BMW and Castrol I was right.
Charlie
Very Interesting.
Here are the approvals for Castrol Edge Sport 0w-40 :
BMW Longlife-04
MB Approval 229.31, 229.51
VW 502 00 / 505 00/503.01
All Porsche cars (except Cayenne V6)
Now passes Mobil 111FE fuel economy test
API SM/CF
ACEA A3/B3, A3/B4, C2, C3
The TBN is 7.7
Would this be OK in an Audi V8 if used for 5K ?
There was a jag of enthusiasm recently for trying Mobil 1 ESP Formula 5W30, a LL04/229.51/ACEA C3 oil; in engines that don't need it. I pointed out that theses oils are compromises to protect diesel emission systems. There were those that held them as miraculous improvements, even better than Mobil 1 0W40.
It looks like according to BMW and Castrol I was right.
Charlie
Very Interesting.
Here are the approvals for Castrol Edge Sport 0w-40 :
BMW Longlife-04
MB Approval 229.31, 229.51
VW 502 00 / 505 00/503.01
All Porsche cars (except Cayenne V6)
Now passes Mobil 111FE fuel economy test
API SM/CF
ACEA A3/B3, A3/B4, C2, C3
The TBN is 7.7
Would this be OK in an Audi V8 if used for 5K ?
My own opinion:
Don't use ACEA C3 oils in anything except vehicles that require them. That is to say, 07 and later BMW, Mercedes, VW/Audi diesels with DPF.
In an Audi with a gas V8 I'd use Mobil 1 0W40 if it meets the specs in the owners' manual, which it probably does.
I am seriously thinking of using Delvac 1 ESP 5W40 in our X5 35d when the warranty runs out.
Charlie
Don't use ACEA C3 oils in anything except vehicles that require them. That is to say, 07 and later BMW, Mercedes, VW/Audi diesels with DPF.
In an Audi with a gas V8 I'd use Mobil 1 0W40 if it meets the specs in the owners' manual, which it probably does.
I am seriously thinking of using Delvac 1 ESP 5W40 in our X5 35d when the warranty runs out.
Charlie
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Originally Posted By: m37charlie
My own opinion:
Don't use ACEA C3 oils in anything except vehicles that require them. That is to say, 07 and later BMW, Mercedes, VW/Audi diesels with DPF.
In an Audi with a gas V8 I'd use Mobil 1 0W40 if it meets the specs in the owners' manual, which it probably does.
I am seriously thinking of using Delvac 1 ESP 5W40 in our X5 35d when the warranty runs out.
Charlie
Dear Charlie,
This is most confusing as the oil is on Audi "Approved Oils"list !
Audi seems to allow low SAPS oils in petrol engines independent of fuel quality. Why do you think such a different approach is taken (vs BMW) ?
As long as the oil is not used for extended periods it should be OK ?
Otherwise I just wasted 15L of oil!!
My own opinion:
Don't use ACEA C3 oils in anything except vehicles that require them. That is to say, 07 and later BMW, Mercedes, VW/Audi diesels with DPF.
In an Audi with a gas V8 I'd use Mobil 1 0W40 if it meets the specs in the owners' manual, which it probably does.
I am seriously thinking of using Delvac 1 ESP 5W40 in our X5 35d when the warranty runs out.
Charlie
Dear Charlie,
This is most confusing as the oil is on Audi "Approved Oils"list !
Audi seems to allow low SAPS oils in petrol engines independent of fuel quality. Why do you think such a different approach is taken (vs BMW) ?
As long as the oil is not used for extended periods it should be OK ?
Otherwise I just wasted 15L of oil!!
My opinion is that VW and BMW mid-SAPS oils could be good choices in North America as long as the oil isn't run too long (too low TBN). We should try these oils and see how they perform. If you look at the spider diagrams on the Lubrizol website, VW 504 and 507 have some of the most stringent requirements that exist for gasoline and passenger car diesel engines.
I bought some of this oil (SLX Pro 0w-40)for my 130i BMW and found the following specs from Castrol UK where it says it comes from (on the bottle). TBN looks ok.
I also got some 0w30 SLX Pro.
Test Method(s) Unit Typical
Relative Density 15°C ASTM D4052 g/ml .841
Appearance Visual
clear and bright
Viscosity, Kinematic 100°C ASTM D445 mm²/s 13.5
Viscosity, Kinematic 40°C ASTM D445 mm²/s 79.3
Viscosity Index ASTM D2270 None 169
Flash Point, PMCC ASTM D93 °C 240
Ash, Sulphated ASTM D874 % wt 1.12
Total Base Number, TBN ASTM D2896 mg KOH/g 10.2
Pour Point ASTM D97 °C -57
I also got some 0w30 SLX Pro.
Test Method(s) Unit Typical
Relative Density 15°C ASTM D4052 g/ml .841
Appearance Visual
clear and bright
Viscosity, Kinematic 100°C ASTM D445 mm²/s 13.5
Viscosity, Kinematic 40°C ASTM D445 mm²/s 79.3
Viscosity Index ASTM D2270 None 169
Flash Point, PMCC ASTM D93 °C 240
Ash, Sulphated ASTM D874 % wt 1.12
Total Base Number, TBN ASTM D2896 mg KOH/g 10.2
Pour Point ASTM D97 °C -57
Like others have said: because of the low TBN, don't run it too long. Just my $0.00 worth.
Charlie
Charlie
Originally Posted By: gtx510
10.2 is a low TBN value? (SLX Pro 0w-40)
No, no 10.2 is great. But the TBNs in the 6.0-7.5 range of the ACEA C3/LL04 oils aren't so good.
Is the SLX Pro 0W40 a LL04 or LL01 oil? I'd guess an LL01/229.5/A3/B4 because ash is well over 0.8%, the limit for C3/LL04 oils. Which explains its' higher TBN.
Charlie
10.2 is a low TBN value? (SLX Pro 0w-40)
No, no 10.2 is great. But the TBNs in the 6.0-7.5 range of the ACEA C3/LL04 oils aren't so good.
Is the SLX Pro 0W40 a LL04 or LL01 oil? I'd guess an LL01/229.5/A3/B4 because ash is well over 0.8%, the limit for C3/LL04 oils. Which explains its' higher TBN.
Charlie
Originally Posted By: m37charlie
Originally Posted By: gtx510
10.2 is a low TBN value? (SLX Pro 0w-40)
No, no 10.2 is great. But the TBNs in the 6.0-7.5 range of the ACEA C3/LL04 oils aren't so good.
Is the SLX Pro 0W40 a LL04 or LL01 oil? I'd guess an LL01/229.5/A3/B4 because ash is well over 0.8%, the limit for C3/LL04 oils. Which explains its' higher TBN.
Charlie
Interestingly in Australia , where Castrol does not recommend LL 04 for BMW petrol engines, Audi uses VW 504/507 5w30 with a TBN of 7.0 for both petrol and diesel.
Originally Posted By: gtx510
10.2 is a low TBN value? (SLX Pro 0w-40)
No, no 10.2 is great. But the TBNs in the 6.0-7.5 range of the ACEA C3/LL04 oils aren't so good.
Is the SLX Pro 0W40 a LL04 or LL01 oil? I'd guess an LL01/229.5/A3/B4 because ash is well over 0.8%, the limit for C3/LL04 oils. Which explains its' higher TBN.
Charlie
Interestingly in Australia , where Castrol does not recommend LL 04 for BMW petrol engines, Audi uses VW 504/507 5w30 with a TBN of 7.0 for both petrol and diesel.
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