BMW e36 328is Winter Short Trips - Suggestions

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: moss
Actually at below 0F the engine needs at least 4-5 min of warm up time.

Why does it need it? What would happen if you started driving it within 30 seconds?

If we're talking about carburated engines, then maybe the longer warmup is justified, but a modern fuel injected one?

 

[shpankey]

Idling takes forever to warm up my cars. But if you start it, let the idle settle and take off (drive easy) the heater is blowing that nice warm air within a mile. Two miles and she cookin.

 

[Craig in Canada]

Originally Posted By: shpankey
Idling takes forever to warm up my cars. But if you start it, let the idle settle and take off (drive easy) the heater is blowing that nice warm air within a mile. Two miles and she cookin.

Exactly.

(Plus, just to be repetitive I'll say again, the owners' manuals tell you to drive gently immediately)

It's been almost ten years since I had a car which had a different startup idle. The Europeans don't seem to do this so my cold start idle is 650, just like when it's all up to temp. In my current car (which has the same engine as the OPs) there are air injection pumps and other things to help the cats fire up instead of running at a faster idle speed.

Unless we're at 0F or below, I start and go but drive accordingly - short-shifting and no fun until it's warm. Getting below 0F I may warm up but even in -30C temps we're talking up to 30 seconds. Usually I will initially drive even more gently instead of idle longer.

In return for this owner's manual recommended behaviour I have a daily driven 190,000km BMW whose engine is still tight, smooth and high performing (for its displacement), gets great fuel economy (tickling 36 USmpg), gives great UOAs (even from my winter OCI) and consumes no detectable oil over 8k-9k km OCIs.

I remember once I had infants in the car and I had no choice but on the first errand leg of a winter round of errands I had to drive to a strip mall nearby and wait for my wife. It was winter but day time and sunny and I left the engine running. The temperature only got to halfway to warmed up (which is probably only 1/3 to operating temp) and then I stopped. With the HVAC on automatic (trying to warm the cabin to room temp) the temperature started to fall. With the HVAC set to a low fan speed the engine temperature stopped falling but did not climb. After getting back on the road it rose the rest of the way to operating temp in a minute.

This car, just like most I've had, simply won't warm up idling - its pointless, wasteful, and harmful. I'm shocked the fella who said he warms up fleet vehicles for an hour admitted it in public - it's shameful IMO.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: Craig in Canada

(Plus, just to be repetitive I'll say again, the owners' manuals tell you to drive gently immediately)

To be fair though, we don't really know why they tell you this. For all we know, they may be influenced by EPA (or whatever the equivalent is in Europe) to minimize pollution.

In some countries in Europe, it is illegal to idle your car for more than 2 minutes.

Other than that, I do agree that trying to warm up the car by idling it is unnecessary and pointless in some cases.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
To be fair though, we don't really know why they tell you this. For all we know, they may be influenced by EPA (or whatever the equivalent is in Europe) to minimize pollution.


Exactly. We certainly know there are plenty of vehicles out there that will simply never get to operating temperatures and optimal lubrication simply by idling. I'd also suggest that modern fuel injection isn't as likely to cause as much fuel dilution on the rich cycle as, say, an old carb in full choke.

Sometimes, up here, a bit of a warmup period is mandatory. It's easy to say drive 30 seconds after starting. That's fantastic, provided there isn't a foot of snow on the vehicle and a half inch of ice on the windshield, in -40 weather.

I'm going to start it first, then clear it. If I reverse that procedure, the humidity from my breath will simply frost up the inside of the vehicle's glass, and I'll be waiting again, anyway.

 

[Craig in Canada]

Originally Posted By: Garak

I'm going to start it first, then clear it. If I reverse that procedure, the humidity from my breath will simply frost up the inside of the vehicle's glass, and I'll be waiting again, anyway.


That problem doesn't need to be solved by heat. Even unheated moving outside air will stop it. I did it all the time in severe cold in my 1.8L 1990 Integra which I was driving in Ottawa's coldest winter on record. I would set out with vents to defrost, fan speed low, temp set to cold to get the engine warming as quickly as possible. As I got some decent coolant temp I would turn the interior temp up a little so as not to shock the glass. I never fogged/frosted up the inside of the glass with these settings.

 

[Craig in Canada]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete

To be fair though, we don't really know why they tell you this. For all we know, they may be influenced by EPA (or whatever the equivalent is in Europe) to minimize pollution.

In some countries in Europe, it is illegal to idle your car for more than 2 minutes.

Other than that, I do agree that trying to warm up the car by idling it is unnecessary and pointless in some cases.


So? Unnecessary pollution would be, all by itself, a reason not the idle the car.

Let's just say it's a conspiracy theory and the car companies really DO want to tell you to idle the vehicle for 15 minutes when it goes below 40F - What downside is showing in the condition of my vehicles? Great economy, performance, refinement and UOAs with no oil consumption after 13 years and pushing 200k km of no idling warmups. Do you think it would be better than near-perfect if I idled the car to warm it up? What more could I ask for? I *do* know that by driving right away my engine spends the shortest amount of time running at temps below normal operating temperature, my cats are fired off quickly and that I'm not needlessly polluting the air or diluting the oil with fuel or water.

The only downside is that the interior of the car isn't toasty warm when you get in, which it wouldn't be from even 15 minutes of idling anyways. My response to that is "suck it up". It's winter, you have a coat and gloves and should have the expectation that it's not warm outside. If you run out to the car to drive somewhere in shirtsleeves maybe a slight behavior modification would help out a lot. If you still feel you're some special -40 every day circumstance then get a block heater.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: Craig in Canada
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete

To be fair though, we don't really know why they tell you this. For all we know, they may be influenced by EPA (or whatever the equivalent is in Europe) to minimize pollution.

In some countries in Europe, it is illegal to idle your car for more than 2 minutes.

Other than that, I do agree that trying to warm up the car by idling it is unnecessary and pointless in some cases.


So? Unnecessary pollution would be, all by itself, a reason not the idle the car.


And that was my point. You don't know why the mfg suggests to immediately begin driving. Is it to reduce pollution or is it because it's bad for the engine?

Quote:
Let's just say it's a conspiracy theory and the car companies really DO want to tell you to idle the vehicle for 15 minutes when it goes below 40F - What downside is showing in the condition of my vehicles? Great economy, performance, refinement and UOAs with no oil consumption after 13 years and pushing 200k km of no idling warmups. Do you think it would be better than near-perfect if I idled the car to warm it up? What more could I ask for? I *do* know that by driving right away my engine spends the shortest amount of time running at temps below normal operating temperature, my cats are fired off quickly and that I'm not needlessly polluting the air or diluting the oil with fuel or water.

Hey, I'm with you on this issue.

I was just trying to play devil's advocate as it's not really clear why the mfg makes that recommendation.

And by the same token, I have not heard of people's cars breaking down prematurely from extended warmup idling, so if they want to waste gas to make their interior more toasty, let them.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: Craig in Canada
So? Unnecessary pollution would be, all by itself, a reason not the idle the car.


And that was my point. You don't know why the mfg suggests to immediately begin driving. Is it to reduce pollution or is it because it's bad for the engine?

I think his point is that unnecessary pollution is a reason for the DRIVER to decide not to idle the car.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Oh dear. I know that.

My question was, why does the mfg say to start driving immediately?

Is it because EPA told them to reduce pollution, even if that means increased wear (not saying that it's true)? Or is it because driving immediately is in fact better for the car?

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Oh dear. I know that.

My question was, why does the mfg say to start driving immediately?

Ah, okay. Just making sure.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Craig in Canada

That problem doesn't need to be solved by heat. Even unheated moving outside air will stop it. I did it all the time in severe cold in my 1.8L 1990 Integra which I was driving in Ottawa's coldest winter on record. I would set out with vents to defrost, fan speed low, temp set to cold to get the engine warming as quickly as possible. As I got some decent coolant temp I would turn the interior temp up a little so as not to shock the glass. I never fogged/frosted up the inside of the glass with these settings.


I grant that you're correct. Even cracking the window open is helpful. However, I'm not worried about shocking the glass. I'm worried about shocking me. I'm a baby when it comes to the cold, and -40 and I do not get along well.

 

[Terminal]

lol i think idling the car in the cold (in the morning) is a canadian staple( unless you have a block heater).

it totally depends on what im doing, but sometimes my car may idle for 5 or so mins. i never let it sit for 20 mins or something silly like that.

to the OP. take the bus or walk. dont bother driving 1 mile trips . car wont get up to operating temp at all.

 

[cutlassvillager]

Thanks for all the great input. I am thinking about another oil change of M1 0w-40 just to ensure complete accuracy when I get a UOA. I am planning on getting a UOA on the current fill just out of curiosity. The RLI 0w-30 looks interesting. If I can't find a good deal on the M1 I may switch to the RLI this time.

I don't think I want to spend the money on a block heater as this will be the only winter I plan on taking such short trips. I'll make sure to take a longer drive at least once a week.

Any suggestions on a shorter drain interval? The OLM seems to average around 10,000 miles per change.

 

[akmac]

To the OP, Are you at GVSU by chance? I ask because I am a Laker myself!

As perilous as it may be walking along campus drive, it is likely even more dangerous being on the road in that nasty winter weather! Unlike those posts that always get hit, you can move! Don't you live near a bus route? Also, if I had a Beemer, I wouldn't subject it to that torture if I could avoid it.

Well, if you are dead set on driving to class, might I suggest using M1 0w30 or even 0w20? I'm no expert, but after reading motor oil 101 by Dr. Haas, in part 9 he says that the thinnest oil that gives you the required pressure at operating temp is completely adequate. Therefore, 0w30 actually flows better at low temp than 0w40, and 0w20 flows better than 0w30 in the same situation. Someone please tell me if i'm wrong, but I think the thinnest you can go would provide the best startup flow/protection.

 

[akmac]

Oops, i didn't realize M1 0w20/30 dont carry the BMW LONGLIFE OIL 01 approval, my bad.

 

[Craig in Canada]

Originally Posted By: akmac
Oops, i didn't realize M1 0w20/30 dont carry the BMW LONGLIFE OIL 01 approval, my bad.


Nothing with HTHS lower than 3.5 will, which rules out a LOT of 30 weight oil. That leaves you with GC and M1 0W40 as your "thinnest" commonly available options.

 

[cutlassvillager]

akmac, no I am not a GVSU student, however I am from Grand Rapids (a suburb of Grand Rapids called East Grand Rapids) so I live pretty close to GVSU. I've heard great things about the school and I have some friends who are students there. I go to Northwood University in Midland, MI

Unfortunately, there is no bus route onto campus, but I will walk when I have the extra time and the roads seem pretty clear.

 

[akmac]

Well, good luck with whatever you choose!