BMW Certified Pre-Owned?

[JOD]

So, I've been looking at 5 series wagons over the last couple of months. There aren't a lot of full size wagons on the market these days, and the '06-08 wagons seem to have hit the sweet spot for depreciation. Since I'm looking for a 5 series with a MT, I'm forced to look on the internet and if I buy one it'll be out of the area--seems they made about 10 of these... Buying a car remotely doesn't bother me, as my last 2 cars were purchased this way.

I didn't want to drag up this old thread , but I vividly remember an exchange from the infamous 60K oil change thread:

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: lipadj46
I feel bad for the person who gets that as certified preowned beemer.

Wouldn't happen. Their CPO program would reject it right off the bat for not having a good, documented maintenance history...


I was actually silly enough to agree with this comment, then I ran across this!

Here's a nice, CPO bimmer:

It's an entertaining thread, but for those who don't want to make it through the whole thing (I'm an insomniac, so it was no problem for me), here are the Cliff's notes:

-BMWNA sucks

-the dealer that sold the car is even worse

-AutoRX is lame

-just because a car has "service records" from the dealer, don't assume they actually change the oil

My general impression is that BMW seem to be going out of their way to advertise their cars as "maintenance free" for the original owner, and is now in the business of making disposable cars. That's unfortunate, because E46 subframes and cooling systems aside, they seem that they'll last a long time if properly maintained. This was a good thing to see, since I now know I won't buy one of these unless I scope the top and bottom half of the engine. I didnt' think that would be necessary on a CPO vehicle, but I was obviously wrong.

This is one guy's experience on the internet, so I don't want to totally dismiss a company based on it, but it does seem incredibly lame on the part of BMWNA.

 

[unixguru]

I tend to agree that BMW and MB started making their cars about 7-8 years back to be disposable. About 10 years ago my mechanic (honda/acura guy) said one interesting thing: American cars go 5 years trouble free, Japanese 10, German between 15-20.

I have heard a lot of negative comments about reliability of new and slightly used MBs and BMWs over the last 5-6 years. Besides making everything "sealed", "maint-free", and "lifetime" actually reduced reliability and ease of maintenance for the owners as well as raised repair costs.

 

[simple_gifts]

A recent BMW dealer ad talked about 1 acre of unallocated vehicles and 1 acre of certified pre-owned; a special way of saying we sell both new and used cars; they sell used cars in layman's terms.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: JOD
I was actually silly enough to agree with this comment, then I ran across this!

If your reading of my comment gave you the impression that CPO was somehow exempt from the laws of the universe and that mistakes would never be made, then I'll have to agree, that was silly.

 

[JOD]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: JOD
I was actually silly enough to agree with this comment, then I ran across this!

If your reading of my comment gave you the impression that CPO was somehow exempt from the laws of the universe and that mistakes would never be made, then I'll have to agree, that was silly.

Hey, where did your original response go! I had an awesome response typed up and my computer ate it...

In short though, I totally understand how a car can slip through the cracks, no doubt about it. What totally shocked me was BMWNA's alleged refusal to correct the problem--or even acknowledge that it was a problem. I say that with all of the usual caveats; this is some random dude on the i-net's story, we're only hearing one side of it, etc... Still, I won't lie, it doesn't give me the warm fuzzies.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: JOD
Hey, where did your original response go! I had an awesome response typed up and my computer ate it...

My apologies. I deleted it because I realized it was essentially a string of non-sequiturs and straw-man arguments. As such, I am willing to accept your un-posted but stinging and well thought-out rebuke.

Originally Posted By: JOD
In short though, I totally understand how a car can slip through the cracks, no doubt about it. What totally shocked me was BMWNA's alleged refusal to correct the problem--or even acknowledge that it was a problem. I say that with all of the usual caveats; this is some random dude on the i-net's story, we're only hearing one side of it, etc... Still, I won't lie, it doesn't give me the warm fuzzies.

Agreed fully.

I think you're right to call these things allegations, and to point out that only one side is being heard and easily could have been falsified (or at least told by someone who didn't have all his facts straight). No way to know. By the same token, I'm right with you on the idea that it arouses suspicion. It's the kind of suspicion one should always have anyway, with or without the horror story, but it's never a bad thing to have a reminder.

 

[Spazdog]

Originally Posted By: unixguru
... About 10 years ago my mechanic (honda/acura guy) said one interesting thing: American cars go 5 years trouble free, Japanese 10, German between 15-20.
...

A lot of former Audi owners from that era would disagree.

I have a client with an '02 7-series. It is now and by his own admission has always been a piece of finely crafted [ excrement ]. The i-Drive will spontaneously show the Windows logo and then read in German. "Ich denke, dass ich ein Huhn bin." or something like that. In addition to the interface bugs it's had a myriad of cooling system and climate control problems.

Why doesn't he just get rid of it? Because when it's good it's really good and when it's bad, it's expensive but the dealer gives him a new BMW loaner.

 

[crw]

You have to approach these things with a bit of realism... the simple fact is that dealers and their employees are businesses unto themselves. Sure, BMW corporate can set down the standards. Then there are "good" BMW dealers, "bad" BMW dealers and many who are in between. You can bet that this sort of thing is "not allowed" as per BMW corporate. You can also bet that some dealers really don't care.

Your post should list the actual dealer name, "Joe Blow's BMW Shack in Boogie Town had this car listed as CPO." That's really as far as you can take it at this point. In this information age, the best we can do is call a spade a spade and be careful. Those who stay in business will be the ones who are honest.

For every buyer of any car, new or used, caveat emptor baby!

 

[JOD]

Originally Posted By: crw
You have to approach these things with a bit of realism... the simple fact is that dealers and their employees are businesses unto themselves. Sure, BMW corporate can set down the standards. Then there are "good" BMW dealers, "bad" BMW dealers and many who are in between. You can bet that this sort of thing is "not allowed" as per BMW corporate. You can also bet that some dealers really don't care.


I understand you point, and don't necessarily disagree with it. That said, I spent most of my adult life working in an industry with a very similar manufacturer/independent dealer network of product distribution--on both sides of the coin but most of it at the manufacturer-level. So, I fully understand the dynamic at play. Generally, you leave it up to the dealer, and only get involved if they're completely punting. Then you either try to convince the dealer to deal with the problem, or shuttle it to another dealer. You do this not only because you want to help the customer, but because one knucklehead dealer can create the sort of bad will that it can take 100K in advertising to overcome. It's simply bad business practice to let an independent dealer damage a manufacturer's reputation, one that takes a lot of $$ and time to build. This guy allegedly took the issue to two different dealers, it wasn't resolved, so he contacted BMWNA and was basically told "it's up to the dealer" And again, I'll say that's his side of the story. That said, he posted the car fax listing the "service records", the CPO paperwork, and pictures of the engine through the filler cap.

If you look through the thread, it's either an incredibly well-crafted tale, or it's truthful. Funny thing is, the guy didn't start posting about how horrible BWM was reacting to his problem, he just thought his oil filter seemed kinda dirty...

Originally Posted By: crw
Your post should list the actual dealer name, "Joe Blow's BMW Shack in Boogie Town had this car listed as CPO." That's really as far as you can take it at this point. In this information age, the best we can do is call a spade a spade and be careful. Those who stay in business will be the ones who are honest.

For every buyer of any car, new or used, caveat emptor baby!


In the linked thread, he actually does name the dealer; and while I think they're predominantly to blame, for the reasons stated above I have to hold BMWNA accountable as well. As far as 'caveat emptor', I totally agree. Yeah, this guy should have checked this car out better before he purchased it (he realized that by the time the ordeal was over). I do think it's a good cautionary tail/reminder though for those buying a CPO vehicle to not make assumptions, which was my main reason for posting.

 

[FowVay]

I'll never own another BMW simply because of my local Atlanta dealerships. The car is pretty fascinating to own but I'm tired of dealing with the idiots and liars that work at the dealerships.

BMWNA could not care any less about how I feel and they've told me so in their polite and round about manner.

So,, I don't stop by their place anymore. Problem solved.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Stealerships have earned that title. Might be a few good ones but I'm still looking!

Caveat Emptor says it all when buying any used car. It's always a bit of a [censored].

Buy enough of any car and you'll eventually find a bad one.

 

[MCompact]

I'm incredibly lucky in that my BMW dealers is first rate- to the point that my wife refuses to buy anything else. She's taken it to them a couple of times(with no appointment) when the tire pressure warning illuminated and both times they checked it out and repaired the tire in under an hour. Once I asked for a transmission software update for the X3; it was supposed to be online but it turned out it wasn't. They shipped the TCU Next Day Air to BMW NA in New Jersey to get it flashed. Meanwhile, they gave me an X3 3.0 M Sport for an additional three days.
And their prices are more than reasonable; the last Inspection II(@70,000 mile service) for the X3 was $424- and that figure includes a brake fluid flush and the repair of a curbed alloy wheel.

 

[pottymouth]

Originally Posted By: Spazdog
Originally Posted By: unixguru
... About 10 years ago my mechanic (honda/acura guy) said one interesting thing: American cars go 5 years trouble free, Japanese 10, German between 15-20.
...

A lot of former Audi owners from that era would disagree.

Don't forget the VW and Mitsubishi owners. They paid their dues in suffering.

 

[M1Accord]

Originally Posted By: unixguru
I tend to agree that BMW and MB started making their cars about 7-8 years back to be disposable. About 10 years ago my mechanic (honda/acura guy) said one interesting thing: American cars go 5 years trouble free, Japanese 10, German between 15-20.

I have heard a lot of negative comments about reliability of new and slightly used MBs and BMWs over the last 5-6 years. Besides making everything "sealed", "maint-free", and "lifetime" actually reduced reliability and ease of maintenance for the owners as well as raised repair costs.


I have been trying to tell people this for the longest time. Look at the resale value of Bimmer in particular. It is at the level of Honda or worse. That is because a typical person buying a 7-9 years of Bimmers are those typical too smart/wise/frugal to get a new Bimmer or new anything. And now many of them wise up that a small repair on a Bimmer would flush their wallet to no end. Whereas a 7- years old Honda is still considered a virgin.

OP, you are better off getting a Subaru Outback or Forester from 2004 and newer. You get about the same amount of space and a powerful AWD engine with good gas mileage to boost.

 

[Spazdog]

Quote:
That is because a typical person buying a 7-9 years of Bimmers are those typical too smart/wise/frugal to get a new Bimmer or new anything


...except for the "bling" crowd that slap on giant chrome lug-centric wheels on an S-class and drive it around with a broken self leveling system shredding the giant 20+" Chinese "Sunny" tires.

Or the Späetzlers that get a BMW 323 coupe, slap on an "M" badge (or worse, a Nissan GT-R or VTEC badge) and think they can beat Corvettes.

Fortuntely these owners typically execute a German car in a short amount of time.

 

[CBR.worm]

It stinks when someone has to go through that, no matter who the MFG.

We have bought a lot of CPO cars, but you still have to inspect them before you sign. We were ready to sign the paperwork for an 08 CPO Mercedes E350 with low miles, mint condition, until the sun happened to shine on it just right so I could see that the whole side of the car had been repainted. The manager came out with his paint thickness guage to prove to me that it had not been repainted - which, to me, makes it worse that he would try to convince me it came from the factory that way. They insisted that it had never been in an accident, clean carfax, etc - but the evidence was there - it was far from perfect.

We were looking at CPO BMW's - same deal. Perfect car, clean carfax, but when we got under the hood we saw broken headlight mounts, new grilles, overspray, etc. This was on many cars at different dealerships.

As I said, we have bought several CPO cars that are perfect, but we have seen some that should not have earned the CPO badge. I have never seen a CPO car that didn't look clean inside the fill cap, but we always look at cars with less than 25K which should still look clean even if the oil was never changed. BMW only calls for 1 oil change before 25K as it is (I don't believe in that recommendation).

We have also bought CPO cars that after a few weeks or months we have noticed something and the dealer takes the stand that it was inspected and CPO so the issue must have occured after we left the lot, or we accepted delivery with those issues and they are our problem now. The CPO warranty is pretty specific.

It makes me mad, but buyiung used it always a gamble, CPO or not. CPO just gives you a better warranty. Without CPO we would not be buying used German cars...Period.

What is interesting is how much different each MFG dealer network treats their customers. Of all the cars we have owned, Lexus was the only one who's dealer network was really impressive. That was in the early '90's but I hope they are still that way. We brought an LS400 in with a vibration at about 30K, they replaced everything from the driveshaft back along with 4 new tires at no charge. We had one of those tires develop a bubble in the sidewall after hitting a railroad tie, they replaced both tires on that axle no questions asked, no charge.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Your Lexus experience is in line with mine. Both my Father and an Uncle are big Lexii fans. I bought a used one in 1995.

Absolutely the ONLY dealership experience ever in 40 years of ownership that was always pleasant and relatively inexpensive. And a durable car to boot with good resale value.

I just grew to hate the total isolation from all outside stimuli. The cars are completely numb.

We move a lot of cars through this family and a Carfax is not really what it's represented as, you still better beware!

 

[FZ1]

I don't buy used cars,but I would never buy one from a dealer. Find a 1 owner car with records and pay to have it checked out. Much rather have a new Honda Pilot than a used BMW.

 

[CivicFan]

Originally Posted By: FZ1
Much rather have a new Honda Pilot than a used BMW.


That's the exact opposite of my sentiments.

 

[unixguru]

Originally Posted By: FowVay
I'll never own another BMW simply because of my local Atlanta dealerships. The car is pretty fascinating to own but I'm tired of dealing with the idiots and liars that work at the dealerships.

BMWNA could not care any less about how I feel and they've told me so in their polite and round about manner.

So,, I don't stop by their place anymore. Problem solved.


It's also a problem with BMW/MB dealers in my area. Those might not be a bad cars to own. But even if I had the money to buy one I would not be buying it from those snobs. Their attitude is as follows:
- you MUST have an appointment to look at/drive the car
- they will not great you unless you have an appointment
- if you have an appointment - you buy a car
- if you don't want to buy a car right now for whatever reason (didn't like the car, price, you want to negotiate the price, or any other for that matter) - get out. We'll sell it to someone else anyway...