BMW 2017 335D - I'm Worried

[Vulusmaximus]

The short mileage on last test may be part of the problem showing higher wear. Run it 8,000 km's & re-test. If it comes back ok then run it to 12,000 km's retest again & then plan to change. Everything well then resume your intervals.

Why do you think it would show a higher ppm though ? Twice as high in fact per mile. I can't get my head round why that would be happening unless something is going south... I'd had it flushed as well on this change and there wasn't anything discernible from that, so its not like the engine is dirty with old deposits (if you get my drift). I found a Blackstone report on another 335D engine which had 128k on the clock. His ppm over 10,000 works out at only 68. If I extrapolate mine on this current sample it's 748...

 

[Bailes1992]

Why do you think it would show a higher ppm though ? Twice as high in fact per mile. I can't get my head round why that would be happening unless something is going south... I'd had it flushed as well on this change and there wasn't anything discernible from that, so its not like the engine is dirty with old deposits (if you get my drift). I found a Blackstone report on another 335D engine which had 128k on the clock. His ppm over 10,000 works out at only 68. If I extrapolate mine on this current sample it's 748...

Bare in mind a flush can also disturb depsoits that contain a concentration of metals.

Nothing you've done so far is remotely scientific and can say what is wrong with your engine, if anything at all.

The dealer could have done a flush before you bought it triggering the high PPM, it could have had new timing chains, or a new oil cooler, or a new turbo, or new big end bearings etc etc. You simply don't know, and if the car was defective and the dealer had to spend money on it then would they likely tell you? Doubt it. Because then you'd think it's a lemon.

Drive it, enjoy it and check back in in a few thousand miles. I'm quite jealous, I love a BMW straight 6 diesel.

 

[fantastic]

Why do you think it would show a higher ppm though ? Twice as high in fact per mile. I can't get my head round why that would be happening unless something is going south... I'd had it flushed as well on this change and there wasn't anything discernible from that, so its not like the engine is dirty with old deposits (if you get my drift). I found a Blackstone report on another 335D engine which had 128k on the clock. His ppm over 10,000 works out at only 68. If I extrapolate mine on this current sample it's 748...

There's a phenomenon that can show lower wear metals over longer runs. Does this mean there are no mechanical problems? no but the only results that are different from your engine are the ones you've run very short durations. You are aware of a potential issue but before going into anything we're recommending you to run it out for several thousand kilometers first to "Double check" if you will. If those results are very high then it will be time to dig into it further.

 

[edyvw]

So why/how can BMW and Mercedes still sell diesels here but not VW/Audi? Just the reputation from dieselgate?

Anyone can sell diesel if they want, including VW.

 

[edyvw]

Bare in mind a flush can also disturb depsoits that contain a concentration of metals.

Nothing you've done so far is remotely scientific and can say what is wrong with your engine, if anything at all.

The dealer could have done a flush before you bought it triggering the high PPM, it could have had new timing chains, or a new oil cooler, or a new turbo, or new big end bearings etc etc. You simply don't know, and if the car was defective and the dealer had to spend money on it then would they likely tell you? Doubt it. Because then you'd think it's a lemon.

Drive it, enjoy it and check back in in a few thousand miles. I'm quite jealous, I love a BMW straight 6 diesel.

^This.
Iron will leach off (and some other materials) with flush. It will do with certain oils (Redline).
Keep using same oil and do UOA to see trend. Two UOA are not indicative of a problem.

 

[Vulusmaximus]

^This.
Iron will leach off (and some other materials) with flush. It will do with certain oils (Redline).
Keep using same oil and do UOA to see trend. Two UOA are not indicative of a problem.

I didn't know that about some Flushes. I don't believe that was in play in this instance though as the readings for the 2nd and 3rd samples were almost identical (taken on the same oil change). I think a third round of sampling analysed by a different firm will provide a more definitive confirmation for trending analysis.

 

[Vulusmaximus]

Bare in mind a flush can also disturb deposits that contain a concentration of metals.

Nothing you've done so far is remotely scientific and can say what is wrong with your engine, if anything at all.

The dealer could have done a flush before you bought it triggering the high PPM, it could have had new timing chains, or a new oil cooler, or a new turbo, or new big end bearings etc etc. You simply don't know, and if the car was defective and the dealer had to spend money on it then would they likely tell you? Doubt it. Because then you'd think it's a lemon.

Drive it, enjoy it and check back in in a few thousand miles. I'm quite jealous, I love a BMW straight 6 diesel.

The sample before the flush and then after were to all intents and purposes the same.
The dealer didn't service the vehicle, he just sold it on after it had been checked over. None of the service history indicates that anything has been done with the engine other than normal servicing.

Anyway, my thinking is to monitor things closely and do some more sampling at perhaps every 500 miles, but this time without changing the oil.

It's my first ever automatic and I must confess I quite enjoy how much more relaxed the driving is in heavy slow traffic/around town. The changes on the 8 speed box are very smooth. I was considering either an M3 or an Audi RS4 or S4 but for me the cost in fuel and road tax is something I just could not stomach. Although this car doesn't have the handling of an M3, the real world performance is very similar to those cars and I can get double the mpg and pay less than half the road tax. On a recent 120 mile motorway run I got 57mpg. What's not to like !

 

[John105]

So your view is I shouldn't be concerned at this ppm value and that it doesn't signify excessive wear is taking place ?

To draw an analogy, it’s like when a Labrador retriever has a blood test, and it shows high cholesterol. While that is treated with humans, it is not in the canine world.

Imho sound advice has been given, drive and enjoy the car. I had one as a loaner once and got 43 mpg!

 

[Donald]

Oil flushes are always a concern. The 45 PPM of iron for the 7151 mile OCI is high. The cylinder wall is probably the iron and pistons probably the aluminum.

I would use spec'ed oil and change it as per owners manual and do a UOA at next oil change.

Besides worrying, what else are you going to do? Tear apart the engine and have it rebuilt because of high wear metals in a UOA?

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Guys
Your wise counsel is sought.

2 months ago I bought a 2017 BMW 335D. It came with a service history and although it had only done 7,151 miles since it's last oil change I decided to baseline where the car was and get it serviced again. On a whim I decided to get an oil analysis done by Motul here in the UK.

The results that came back were not good, so after speaking with the analyst I opted to do another oil change only 789 miles later. I had two samples taken, 1 before an engine flush was added, and a second after the flush was added and then the full change done (I hope that makes sense).

Here is the oil change history to date.

No	Date	Mileage	Miles Since Last Change	Age of Oil Mths	Brand	Viscoity	Life	Notes
1	18-Dec-18	10,771	10,771	15.5	BMW	0w30	LL04	Confirmed history.
2	09-Jun-20	20,241	9,470	18	BMW	0w30	LL04	Confirmed history.
3	24-Oct-22	35,807	15,566	27	BMW	0w30	LL04	Suspected, but not confirmed.
4	25-Apr-23	41,268	5,461	6	BMW	0w30	LL04	Confirmed history.
5	22-May-24	48,419	7,151	13	BMW	5w30	LL04	Confirmed history.
6	12-Jun-24	49,208	789	1	Motul	5w40	LL04	Confirmed history.

This is the Motul report I received today showing the 3 samples.

View attachment 225835

So, just to recap, the sample taken on 22 May was after 7,151 miles and the two samples taken on 12 Jun were after a further 789 miles.

This gives me a ppm chart as follows:

View attachment 225840

Your thoughts would be much appreciated.

Kind regards to all
Ian

Agree Iron and Al are high. Perhaps run a couple of thousand miles as long as it's running/sounding fine and the oil filter is clear of material.

It it possible that the prior owner tuned the car? Maybe a BMW dealership can scan the car for an aftermarket tune?

 

[Vulusmaximus]

Oil flushes are always a concern. The 45 PPM of iron for the 7151 mile OCI is high. The cylinder wall is probably the iron and pistons probably the aluminum.

I would use spec'ed oil and change it as per owners manual and do a UOA at next oil change.

Besides worrying, what else are you going to do? Tear apart the engine and have it rebuilt because of high wear metals in a UOA?

Looking back over the service history all the oil changes have used the correct grade(s) of oil.

Yesssss, the question is what to do, or not do.... Currently the car has a warranty attached to it. I emailed the retailer I bought it from yesterday and said hey look at this info. The warranty itself says: "If your vehicle shows imminent signs of failure of parts or breakdown do not continue to use it." It will be interesting to see what they say.

Myself I think another UOA is required in another 500 miles maybe using a different analyst (as a cross check). If the ppm rate per 10,000 miles continues to increase, yes I think an engine teardown is required. It's currently 10 times what might be considered a acceptable level with a sharp upward trend.

 

[Vulusmaximus]

Agree Iron and Al are high. Perhaps run a couple of thousand miles as long as it's running/sounding fine and the oil filter is clear of material.

It it possible that the prior owner tuned the car? Maybe a BMW dealership can scan the car for an aftermarket tune?

No the car hasn't been tuned. If it had, the power dials available on the centre digital display would have been recalibrated to reflect the additional HP and Torque.

Yes, I'll run it for some more miles then do another UOA.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

No the car hasn't been tuned. If it had, the power dials available on the centre digital display would have been recalibrated to reflect the additional HP and Torque.

Yes, I'll run it for some more miles then do another UOA.

I don't know what the market is like in the UK but in the US there are tunes where the hardware splices into the wiring harness allowing for removal prior to visiting the dealerships. In many cases the computers at BMW corporate can still determine whether or not the vehicle had this type of tune.

 

[Vulusmaximus]

I don't know what the market is like in the UK but in the US there are tunes where the hardware splices into the wiring harness allowing for removal prior to visiting the dealerships. In many cases the computers at BMW corporate can still determine whether or not the vehicle had this type of tune.

That's a fair point you raise about the tune, although over here most tunes are ECU maps or hardware that plugs into the diagnostic port. Even then they would probably only be stage 1 Maps. A stage 2 on this car would require an upgrade intercooler (although I must confess I don't know much more than that).

 

[more_fasterer]

Hey, welcome to BITOG. Have a look at the thread I've got going for the N57 in my M50d.

My engine also has high iron levels, but twX makes an excellent point in there: the low PQI count indicates the iron particulate is very fine, so more likely to be a result of corrosion than wear. I don't see PQI on your UOA from Motul so maybe try a different UOA service next time around so you can get a PQI reading.

But as others have said - in the analysis you've done so far, there's no sure-fire indicator of impending engine doom. Once you've done another 8,000km then see where it's at.

 

[Oliveoil2]

Guys
Your wise counsel is sought.

2 months ago I bought a 2017 BMW 335D. It came with a service history and although it had only done 7,151 miles since it's last oil change I decided to baseline where the car was and get it serviced again. On a whim I decided to get an oil analysis done by Motul here in the UK.

The results that came back were not good, so after speaking with the analyst I opted to do another oil change only 789 miles later. I had two samples taken, 1 before an engine flush was added, and a second after the flush was added and then the full change done (I hope that makes sense).

Here is the oil change history to date.

No	Date	Mileage	Miles Since Last Change	Age of Oil Mths	Brand	Viscoity	Life	Notes
1	18-Dec-18	10,771	10,771	15.5	BMW	0w30	LL04	Confirmed history.
2	09-Jun-20	20,241	9,470	18	BMW	0w30	LL04	Confirmed history.
3	24-Oct-22	35,807	15,566	27	BMW	0w30	LL04	Suspected, but not confirmed.
4	25-Apr-23	41,268	5,461	6	BMW	0w30	LL04	Confirmed history.
5	22-May-24	48,419	7,151	13	BMW	5w30	LL04	Confirmed history.
6	12-Jun-24	49,208	789	1	Motul	5w40	LL04	Confirmed history.

This is the Motul report I received today showing the 3 samples.

View attachment 225835

So, just to recap, the sample taken on 22 May was after 7,151 miles and the two samples taken on 12 Jun were after a further 789 miles.

This gives me a ppm chart as follows:

View attachment 225840

Your thoughts would be much appreciated.

Kind regards to all
Ian

Miles on the car?

 

[more_fasterer]

The other thing I would add is these engines don't seem to suffer rod bearing issues, it's the main bearings that seem to fail excessively. As far as I can tell from looking at failed N57 main bearings on the internetz, the failure states of the bearings typically seem to point to accelerated wear from insufficient oil viscosity and/or excessively long oil change intervals. On the latter, yours doesn't seem to have been subjected to the excessively long 30,000km oil change intervals that BMW specify, which means it has likely been owned by someone who actually gave a **** about it. On the former, there's a great (but very long) thread on Pistonheads that goes into some detail about the main bearing failures the British police BMWs were experiencing; interestingly, the first recommendation from BMW was to switch to 5W40 and change the oil more often! I took that as enough of a suggestion to switch to 5W40 myself.

 

[Vulusmaximus]

Miles on the car?

It currently has 49,530 on it.

 

[Vulusmaximus]

The other thing I would add is these engines don't seem to suffer rod bearing issues, it's the main bearings that seem to fail excessively. As far as I can tell from looking at failed N57 main bearings on the internetz, the failure states of the bearings typically seem to point to accelerated wear from insufficient oil viscosity and/or excessively long oil change intervals. On the latter, yours doesn't seem to have been subjected to the excessively long 30,000km oil change intervals that BMW specify, which means it has likely been owned by someone who actually gave a **** about it. On the former, there's a great (but very long) thread on Pistonheads that goes into some detail about the main bearing failures the British police BMWs were experiencing; interestingly, the first recommendation from BMW was to switch to 5W40 and change the oil more often! I took that as enough of a suggestion to switch to 5W40 myself.

Thanks for that link I shall follow it up. Interestingly the Motul analyst I have been talking with and corresponding with also recommended 5w40. That's what I have in now.

 

[Vulusmaximus]

Hey, welcome to BITOG. Have a look at the thread I've got going for the N57 in my M50d.

My engine also has high iron levels, but twX makes an excellent point in there: the low PQI count indicates the iron particulate is very fine, so more likely to be a result of corrosion than wear. I don't see PQI on your UOA from Motul so maybe try a different UOA service next time around so you can get a PQI reading.

But as others have said - in the analysis you've done so far, there's no sure-fire indicator of impending engine doom. Once you've done another 8,000km then see where it's at.

Hi there
Yes I was reading your thread with interest. I have been trawling the net to find other examples of oil changes. I've just focused on BMW and only 3.0ltr diesels. Including yours I now have 11 examples.
I have collated the data together and then extrapolated to ppm per 10,000 miles. I've generated 3 different charts now and included some wording from Blackstone oil analysts. It brings into further sharp focus how high my test readings are...