Big Brother in Britain

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"How about the freedom from politicians who speak as if they only recently began walking upright?
How about freedom from nationalism masquerading as patriotism?
How about freedom from being lied to and expected to not only believe the lies, but to be grateful for them?"

How about the right of the government to look after the common welfare.


More seriously, there are many people who are on no-fly lists for no reason, who are no longer free to travel easily.

You do realize, of course, that there are many things these days, that used to require a warrant that no longer do....
 
"How about the freedom from politicians who speak as if they only recently began walking upright?
How about freedom from nationalism masquerading as patriotism?
How about freedom from being lied to and expected to not only believe the lies, but to be grateful for them?"

How about the right of the government to look after the common welfare. Correction to above post.
 
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So ..I'd qualify most of what you're saying as "in the foreseeable future". You don't see a problem ..and neither did the jews before 1933
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No, I really don't see a problem with it. And I certainly don't see how any rational person who has looked at the new provisions of the act and how it amended the existing United States Code could ever draw any analogy between it and the mass extermination of Jews or any other draconian type of police state.
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The original act was codified as Public Law 107-56-Oct 26, 2001. You might want to consider actually reading it.
 
"How about the freedom from politicians who speak as if they only recently began walking upright?
How about freedom from nationalism masquerading as patriotism?
How about freedom from being lied to and expected to not only believe the lies, but to be grateful for them?"

I don't actually think these are freedoms more than behavorial.

What freedom have you lost lately?
 
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Why, I pointed out that some of them are being restricted or run over by the government, of course.




You have done no such thing. In my opinion, you have spread misinformation and done a disservice to honest debate on the subject.
 
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No, I really don't see a problem with it. And I certainly don't see how any rational person who has looked at the new provisions of the act and how it amended the existing United States Code could ever draw any analogy between it and the mass extermination of Jews or any other draconian type of police state.
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The original act was codified as Public Law 107-56-Oct 26, 2001. You might want to consider actually reading it.




Win - again ..nobody sees anything like those things coming ..they aren't a revolution ..they're quiet and progressive ..incremental ... and each step of the way rationalized as necessary. A police state doesn't just roll out in the midst of happiness, harmony, and bounty.


Now as far as reading the public law ..I've tried. It's lengthy and doesn't clearly define limits. That is, at one point (Sec I) makes it sound like it's totally limited to "foreign nationals" and that no US resident is effected. However, in Title II: Enhanced Surveillance Procedures it appears totally ambiguous. Many of the clauses appear to be written in this format (parallel declaration for importance)

HE OWNS A SHOPPING MALL (pause) with other interests.

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(1) specified chemical weapons or terrorism offenses; and (2) computer fraud and abuse.




So ..would I be correct that one need only be investigated for computer fraud ..or what is deemed computer "abuse" and you're under the Enhanced Surveillance provisions???

I do talk slow ..but some tapeworms are a bit much to swallow in one bite.
 
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Why, I pointed out that some of them are being restricted or run over by the government, of course.




You have done no such thing. In my opinion, you have spread misinformation and done a disservice to honest debate on the subject.




You're welcome to your opinion, of course.
The original subject was surveillence in the UK, and how seemingly unavoidable it has become. I hope it doesn't come to that here.
 
Gary,

I don't know where the snippet you posted came from in the act.

Sections 215 and 218 in the original act were the major source of controversy IIRC.
 
TITLE II--ENHANCED SURVEILLANCE PROCEDURES

Sec. 202. Authority to intercept wire, oral, and electronic communications relating to computer fraud and abuse offenses.

I see no need for anything related to "foreign interests" being needed here. All on needs to be subject to investigation is the alleged computer abuse.

So, they do it ..and you're found guilty or not guilty as you may or may not be ...yet your privacy has been breached.

..or am I reading it incorrectly
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You would have to go and look at the part of the code section 202 amended, so, yes, you are reading it incorrectly by looking only at the title.

Sections 215 and 218 were the controversial provisions that critics of the Act felt needed fine tuning or could be subject to abuse, and are what you want to be looking at. Both of these amended the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978, commonly known as FISA.

In a nutshell, everything under FISA is secret. With respect to section 215, a records request under FISA cannot be disclosed to the target. Even though the amendment specifically provided that an investigation may only be made to protect against international terrorism or clandestine intelligence gathering and is not to be made of a United States person solely on the basis of activities protected by the first amendment, the concern is that people may choose not to engage in constitutionally protected first amendment activities if they think their records can be requested without their knowing of it, thus having a possible chilling effect on otherwise lawful conduct.

Before section 218, a FISA surveillance warrant could issue if there was probable cause to believe a target was a foreign power or agent of a foreign power and intelligence gathering was the sole purpose of the surveillance. After section 218, intelligence gathering need only be a significant purpose of the surveillance. Critics are afraid that law enforcement will use the FISA court to initiate surveillance if there is probable cause that the target is a foreign power or agent of a foreign power and they can show that intelligence gathering is a "significant" portion of the surveillance. Under straight criminal law procedures, a warrant would only be issued on a showing of probable cause to believe a crime has been committed. The critics are afraid that by loosening this procedure from "sole" purpose, to "significant" purpose, that information will be obtained from surveillance that could not be obtained under traditional probable cause standards, and that criminal prosecution may be had on this improperly obtained evidence. Because of the secrecy of FISA, the concern is that the defendant may not be able to get the information to make a proper fourth amendment challenge to the evidence against him.

Anyway, that's how I understood it. I'm not engaged in international terrorism, clandestine intelligence gathering, and I'm not an agent of a foreign power, so I haven't worried much about this, and I don't know what the current status of these provisions are. They may have changed in the interim since passage of the original act.
 
Well, as far as I can see The Patriot Act alters The Electronic Communications Privacy Act ..which has no provisions for "foreign intelligence" or anything like that. Maybe I'm just a dunce
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..but no matter...I take your word for it that this is totally harmless and never result in an abuse of power (not
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Thanks for taking the time
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After hearing about that Russian former spy (and maybe more victims to come) who was murdered in the UK using radioactive waste, I was amazed they were able to call up surveillance videos from the CCTV system from weeks earlier to see who was walking in and out of various locations at the time.
 
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After hearing about that Russian former spy (and maybe more victims to come) who was murdered in the UK using radioactive waste, I was amazed they were able to call up surveillance videos from the CCTV system from weeks earlier to see who was walking in and out of various locations at the time.




Goes to show that the big brother stuff doesn't stop things happening, but makes for great media after the event showing what went on.
 
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