Best Semi truck Engine?

[blackman777]

Let's say I wanted to become an owner/operator and ship freight. I don't but let's say I did.

What's the best [new] engine?

I'm thinking Volvo would be a good choice & Navistar would be a horrible choice (due to bad EGR design) (breakdowns) (poor horsepower due to EPA-2010 restrictions).

 

[supton]

New or used? Emissions changed and I suspect the answers depend upon that.

 

[whip]

That's like asking if Ford or Chevy is better. Good luck.

 

[TiredTrucker]

Depending on if one runs California or not, which I don't, then you can go a totally different route on all of this. I have owned several semi's over the years. My current truck is a 2013 Freightliner with...... a pre-emission Series 60 engine! That's right, you can buy a truck chassis and body without an engine and put in the one you want. It is called a "glider truck". You specify the engine you want to put in when you order the truck, they supply all the connections you will need to fit the engine of your choice into it. You just have to drop the engine in, hook up everything, and go a haulin'. You can put Detroits, Cummins, or Cats into these glider trucks.

Now, the cool thing about this, is that the EPA ties the emission standard to the year the engine was built, not the year the truck was built! So, my 2013 has a 2000 engine in it. And when you put a truck together this way, you get to avoid the Federal Excise Tax on new equipment. Yep, that is in the IRS code.

So, my 2013 Freightliner, with a factory rebuilt 500 hp Detroit Series 60 12.7L, Factory rebuilt Eaton 18 speed, everything else brand new, was $40,000 LESS than a comparably equipped new truck from all the OEM's. I could not get any OEM to quote me less than $150,000 for one of their new production trucks spec'd the way I wanted it. My 2013 Freightliner gilder? How about $112,000 ready to roll and go to work.

All of this is moot if one wants to run California. They have a ban on pre-emission engines with their CARB rules. No problem for me. I don't go to California.

The best way to get one of these gliders, is to go to a place that specializes in building them. Fitzgerald, in TN, has been at this for years. But they are not a Freightliner dealer. They are 3rd Party. A Freightliner dealer that is doing this, and pumping out as many and soon, more gliders than Fitzgerald, is Harrison Truck Center in Waterloo, IA. I got mine from them. They are kicking over 1000 of these a year and set to become the largest in 2014. They just added more assembly bays and crews to build them. Best truck I have ever owned and the best deal I have ever made.

 

[blackman777]

I would hope people would examine the current state of engines (i.e. if Brand X is catching fire) (or frequently broken down) (or fails emissions), rather than treat a corporation as if it was a favored girlfriend.

 

[cascivic]

If I was going o/o and looking new glider is def the way to go! Post some pics of that beast is it a Coronado?

 

[wvrailroader]

I know our company's experience with Navistar is terrible. VERY poor reliability vs. miles driven. Navistar has no idea what wiring harnesses are even on a particular vehicle (even given the VIN number). To order a new one, we had to take the old one off and take pictures of all the connections and the harness itself. Six weeks (and $2500) later, the new harness arrives and is still wrong. Some of the trucks have caught fire due to Navistar running a large (unfused) ground and hot wire together in the same wire loom over the engine. The insulation wears off due to the vibration and you get a nice fire which destroys the truck. I could go on and on for quite a while with the problems we have experienced. We recently switched to Freightliner and don't have enough experience with them yet for me to have an opinion on them.

 

[TiredTrucker]

Nope, it is a Columbia. Mid roof. We took off the stock exhaust manifold and waste gate turbo before dropping the engine in and put on a higher flowing ported/polished/coated manifold with a larger Borg Warner 171702 turbo with a blanket on it. Ran that to twin stacks up the back outfitted with Walker Megaflow mufflers. We pumped the engine up to 550 hp and 1850 torque. It is riding on Meritor aluminum housing 14X drive axles with full lockers.

Dupont Dodge Viper Blue Pearl Elite body paint w the frame and undercarriage painted in Dupont Dodge Viper Red.

Have some pics posted at my Facebook page. https://www.facebook.com/cliff.downing.7/photos

 

[JTK]

TT, Just out of curiosity, how do you do fuel economy wise with your setup?

 

[TiredTrucker]

I just now actually took a look at OP's location. This is all kind of a moot topic since he is out of California. Sorry.

But if I had to deal with one of the new engines, I might consider the Detroit or Volvo engines. I had an EGR equipped Cummins ISX before my present ride. I really like Cummins before that. Had a couple of N-14's in the past. But after 2 ISX engines, I got to the point where I don't ever want to see a red engine in my trucks again. I have heard mixed things about the Paccar engines. The Mack engines are basically Volvo engines. International just brought their Maxxforce engines back out with SCR capability now, so the jury is still out. Cat isn't in the game anymore, at least for class 8 semi's.

Overall, given the choices and problems, I would be motivated to put my dollars toward the Freightliners with Detroit engines. Kind of the lesser of the evils. This emission stuff has really changed the landscape on maintenance problems. It is now a nightmare. From watching other users experience, the Freightliner and Detroit combination has a higher overall up time. Volvo has had serious issues with it parts system for quite a while, and when you are dealing with a proprietary engine, that can be a bad thing. But there are a lot of Volvo 13L engines running around. Cummins is hit or miss on reliability, but the big problem I have is there parts pricing... they are sure proud of their products, and they are going to make sure you know it also when you get the bill to fix something.

As far as vehicle chassis and electrical. It seems to be a mix of issues. Maybe Paccar takes an edge in the chassis game for build quality. The KW's and Petes seem to have better overall build quality. The rest, it is hit or miss. But with the Paccar products, you are only going to get a choice of Cummins or Paccar engines. No sale for me.

One that is beginning to cause me to look at is the Mack Pinnacle. The Mack engine, though a Volvo design, seems to be a good performer. And Allison is now offering a TC10 TS full automatic (not an auto shift) that is giving the auto shifts a run for their money on quality and fuel economy. That would be an interesting combination. Allison is now offering the same trans in the International Prostar, for whatever that is worth.

Tough deal trying to put together a good truck/engine/trans combination in today's world. You gain some things, and you give up some things. Trying to find that balance has to be the target to hit.

 

[TiredTrucker]

Originally Posted By: JTK
TT, Just out of curiosity, how do you do fuel economy wise with your setup?



I average in the high 7's year round. Can regularly bust some 8's in the summer, and get walloped sometimes in the winter months. I stay up north all winter. I haul a lot of bulk ag products, but also some lighter stuff as well. Average 35,000 lb of freight in the box. By doing a lot of upper midwest stuff, especially bulk ag stuff, I have to run up and down a lot of two lane, hilly kind of roads. When I have one of the lighter loads, on something like the toll road in Indiana, I can get close to 9 mpg territory.

 

[Silverado12]

That's a nice looking Freightliner, TT. I drove a midroof similat to that (much more basic fleet truck, though) with the Series 60 515 and it got high sixes for mpg. We pulled tankers, so fully loaded and most of the time empty coming back. We changed over to Peterbilts (Cummins 550) and they pull stronger than the Detroits, but not by much. Even with the DEF it gets high sixes for mileage too. Lots of problems with the epa stuff, though.

 

[The_Jed]

I've seen some shockingly high mpg numbers from 60 Series Detroits, like most people above have stated, and some ridiculous amounts of power out of C15 Caterpillar and N14 Cummins engines.

 

[The_Jed]

I think the old 2-stroke Detroits sound the best.

 

[xxch4osxx]

I would have to say the pre'07 Cummins ISX engines. We have 3 at work that have pulled heavy all their life and the only problems have been egr valves and a couple turbos. They are all uprated to 565HP. All engines are over 1,000,000 kilometers. We gross 136,000lbs every load hauling aggregates.

 

[CurtisB]

Every HD diesel manufacturer is producing a low quality product in todays market, it is about profit margins - more problems more repair bills. Large economy carriers who purchase the most units per year determine the market. We can thank those large carriers for continuing to blindly purchase poorly engineered, cheaply produced economy trucks. Power units are purchased based on the projected operating cost per unit (Fuel being the largest factor). There is no formula to equate "reliability" in that operating cost and thus it is given little thought in most cases.

The Maxxforce engine by Navistar is by far the worst abomination of a diesel powerplant I have ever seen. The block is from Caterpillar and the valve train is by MANN. The rest of the motor I believe was designed by Dr. Seuss himself. The company I currently drive for purchased Maxxforce powered, International Prostar series trucks (based on those projected costs) two years ago. Every driver ensued through endless breakdowns whether it be emissions related or otherwise. My most famous personal experience was a Maxxforce unit breaking down twice in two days, both because of failure to perform a particulate regeneration burn. It was limped to Navistar where it was "repaired" and resumed the same malfunction on the return trip. Disgruntled and attempting to limp home with a badly plugged particulate filter, the valve train eventually succumbed to the immense backpressure and cratered. At the very end it sounded like rocks running through a blender, a burden lifted I never drove it again as it never ran again. Let us truckers pray the Maxxforce be a [censored] lost in a distant hurricane.

As far as newer emission engines go, I have to put my favor on Cummins ISX series powerplants. Reliability is something that is hard to translate. I consider surprise breakdowns the largest factor in determining the reliability of an engine or tracter unit. All HD diesel engines will inevitably require an in frame rebuild, usually at 2/3 of the total life expectancy of the truck it is in. In frames are typically a last ditch effort to get a final 200,000 miles out of a unit before it's retired and auctioned (In frame rebuilds also increase resale value).

Cummins over the past few years has had a decline in quality, no doubt because it will sell regardless on its namesake. Cummins ISX model engines are beginning to have problems normally seen late in life much earlier such as premature camshaft failure or broken connecting rods as an example. Turbochargers which would normally last 500,000 miles are now lasting 300,000 miles. I am not a fanboy of Cummins and I will detest any claim that they last forever or are bulletproof etc, they are simply the best quality junk engines on the market today.

 

[TiredTrucker]

Kinda hard to refute any of that. I am reminded of a Star Trek movie where they stole the Enterprise and the new Excelsior was going to give chase. It conked out, and Scottie commented "the more complicated they make the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain". Every time I see and deal with one of these new EPA compliant engines with SCR, DPF, etc, it seems like just a nightmare of complexity. It costs more just to do an oil change on these things now, let alone repair them. The big mega fleets can spread these expenses in down time and repairs over the entire fleet. The single truck or small fleet owner can really take it in the shorts if they have major issues with these engines. It might be a little more tolerable, if these things could pull off solid 9 mpg all the time. At least the costs would balance better.

 

[Jarlaxle]

Originally Posted By: blackman777
Let's say I wanted to become an owner/operator and ship freight. I don't but let's say I did.

What's the best [new] engine?

I'm thinking Volvo would be a good choice & Navistar would be a horrible choice (due to bad EGR design) (breakdowns) (poor horsepower due to EPA-2010 restrictions).


Buy a truck as a glider. Have a pre-2007 (ideally, a pre-2003) engine of your choice (3406 Cat, N14 Cummins, Detroit 60) installed. There are no "good" choices anymore, they're all finicky, fragile, thirsty, and castrated.

If you cannot do that...honestly, I'd say forget it.

 

[Jarlaxle]

Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
Depending on if one runs California or not, which I don't, then you can go a totally different route on all of this. I have owned several semi's over the years. My current truck is a 2013 Freightliner with...... a pre-emission Series 60 engine! That's right, you can buy a truck chassis and body without an engine and put in the one you want. It is called a "glider truck". You specify the engine you want to put in when you order the truck, they supply all the connections you will need to fit the engine of your choice into it. You just have to drop the engine in, hook up everything, and go a haulin'. You can put Detroits, Cummins, or Cats into these glider trucks.

Now, the cool thing about this, is that the EPA ties the emission standard to the year the engine was built, not the year the truck was built! So, my 2013 has a 2000 engine in it. And when you put a truck together this way, you get to avoid the Federal Excise Tax on new equipment. Yep, that is in the IRS code.

So, my 2013 Freightliner, with a factory rebuilt 500 hp Detroit Series 60 12.7L, Factory rebuilt Eaton 18 speed, everything else brand new, was $40,000 LESS than a comparably equipped new truck from all the OEM's. I could not get any OEM to quote me less than $150,000 for one of their new production trucks spec'd the way I wanted it. My 2013 Freightliner gilder? How about $112,000 ready to roll and go to work.

All of this is moot if one wants to run California. They have a ban on pre-emission engines with their CARB rules. No problem for me. I don't go to California.

The best way to get one of these gliders, is to go to a place that specializes in building them. Fitzgerald, in TN, has been at this for years. But they are not a Freightliner dealer. They are 3rd Party. A Freightliner dealer that is doing this, and pumping out as many and soon, more gliders than Fitzgerald, is Harrison Truck Center in Waterloo, IA. I got mine from them. They are kicking over 1000 of these a year and set to become the largest in 2014. They just added more assembly bays and crews to build them. Best truck I have ever owned and the best deal I have ever made.


So...will they build a nice cabover set up for a 600HP DD60?

 

[Jarlaxle]

Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
Kinda hard to refute any of that. I am reminded of a Star Trek movie where they stole the Enterprise and the new Excelsior was going to give chase. It conked out, and Scottie commented "the more complicated they make the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain". Every time I see and deal with one of these new EPA compliant engines with SCR, DPF, etc, it seems like just a nightmare of complexity. It costs more just to do an oil change on these things now, let alone repair them. The big mega fleets can spread these expenses in down time and repairs over the entire fleet. The single truck or small fleet owner can really take it in the shorts if they have major issues with these engines. It might be a little more tolerable, if these things could pull off solid 9 mpg all the time. At least the costs would balance better.


We have a bunch of emission diesels at work, and they are dreadful! The Maxxforces are the worst, but the Cummins are no prizes, either. Note: none of our semis top 6.5MPG (many don't top 6), none of our 2008+ box trucks (6.7 Cummins) top 7.5MPG. My pre-DPF (250HP 7.2 Cat) truck manages 8.5-9MPG, despite being more powerful (250HP versus 220-230), higher (13'6" versus 13'), and more capable (33,000lb versus 26,000) than the DPF trucks!