Best protection against Ethanol ?

[Rand]

Nearly the only places in Ohio to get ethanol-free are marina's and many are gas can only.
.. there are a couple speed shops and terminals but nothing nearby.

I may consider buying 5gal next year for my OPE but everything seems to run fine on 87-93 regular gas.

I would pay 10c or 20c extra per gallon for E0

we do have some E85 stations now as well.

 

[29662]

Originally Posted By: kschachn
Can you explain what in the engine needs lubricity from the fuel?

Originally Posted By: 29662
The main drawbacks of Ethanol( at least for me). Are that it is hygroscopic and lacks lubricity. The former can be combated somewhat by filling at high volume gas stations, to ensure fresher gas. The latter by using a little tcw-3(500:1). Some of the better tcw-3's also have fuel stabilizers in them which would help with long term storage. Realistically none of this is necessary as long as you don't allow the gas to sit in the tank for too long.


In the engine , nothing , per se. Although it does act as an upper cylinder lubricant, its main benefit is in the fuel system itself. I've spoken to reps from several companies that make fuel pumps, and they claim that the lack of lubricity causes fuel pumps to fail sooner than with just pure gas. They claim ethanol is one of the reasons why so many fuel pumps failed when E10 first came out. It wasn't just that it attacked and dried out rubber, but the fact that it was less lubricious caused pump rotor failures. Manufacturers have caught up and made design changes to compensate, but it is still preferable to have something a little bit slipperier in there. Plus it (TCW-3) helps combat corrosion in the tank and lines from the moisture attracted by the E.

 

[SHOZ]

You can get midgrade gas and the dope it with water to remove the ethanol. Should leave you with E0 87 octane.

 

[y_p_w]

Originally Posted By: OneEyeJack
Has anything been accomplished by putting ethanol in gasoline, anything useful? It lowers gas mileage, causes problems with the fuel systems, makes gasoline more expensive and takes food away from pigs. For me, I'd rather have no ethanol, better mileage, less problems with my fuel system, cheaper gasoline and more bacon.

It actually increases the octane rating, which can be important in areas where there's a high demand for premium fuel. It also doesn't make it more expensive these days, as the base gasoline without ethanol costs more than denatured fuel ethanol.

 

[kschachn]

Well, what's an upper cylinder lube then?

And for the rest of it, namely the fuel pumps - I guess I'm not too worried, having gone so many miles in my not-so-new vehicles without it and not having to change a fuel pump. And I thought the EtOH helped to dissolve any water present and put it into suspension. How does the TCW-3 combat the corrosion?

I guess I don't understand how before the 10% alcohol was added it had sufficient lubricity but now it doesn't.

Originally Posted By: 29662
In the engine , nothing , per se. Although it does act as an upper cylinder lubricant, its main benefit is in the fuel system itself. I've spoken to reps from several companies that make fuel pumps, and they claim that the lack of lubricity causes fuel pumps to fail sooner than with just pure gas. They claim ethanol is one of the reasons why so many fuel pumps failed when E10 first came out. It wasn't just that it attacked and dried out rubber, but the fact that it was less lubricious caused pump rotor failures. Manufacturers have caught up and made design changes to compensate, but it is still preferable to have something a little bit slipperier in there. Plus it (TCW-3) helps combat corrosion in the tank and lines from the moisture attracted by the E.

 

[19jacobob93]

Originally Posted By: kschachn
You reduced your fuel consumption by 5-10%?

Originally Posted By: 19jacobob93
+1 for TCW3, it helps prevent the Ethanol drying out plastic and rubber seals and components, as well as acting as a UCL.
I still add it to my fuel despite avoiding ethanol and using only Shell V-Power! Overkill maybe but it has good cleaning and anti wear properties and I can feel the difference in my engine, idle and acceleration is much smoother and fuel consumption is down around 5-10%

The recommended dosage is 400-500:1 but with the fuel containing ethanol I'd lean towards the heavier end and go for around 400:1


Woah here comes the BITOG Sheriff...
And yes it is very common to increase mpg by up to 10% after adding TCW3 and some people have stated higher increases but I think their calculations are out somewhere unless they had a problem that it fixed.
Not only that but it is packed with detergents so can be used as a long term fuel system cleaner, will lubricate your fuel pump and injectors, and is an excellent UCL. For such a small price I see absolutely no reason not to add it since a 1L bottle cost about $6 and lasts 5 or 6 full tanks.
As for your comment about why does fuel need lubricity, why do you think they used to add lead? Why do valve saver fluids exist for older cars? And UCLs for newer cars... I will always add a UCL or TCW3 because it makes the car run much much smoother probably because the top end is getting some well deserved lubrication.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: 19jacobob93
And yes it is very common to increase mpg by up to 10% after adding TCW3

I'm surprised the government hasn't mandated the use of TCW3 in all gasoline in order to reduce our dependency on oil.

 

[fdcg27]

Originally Posted By: Pop_Rivit
I use plain old StaBil for non-vehicle fuel, simply some of them sit for months at a time. I use it every time I fill my 30 gallon portable gas can. Everything always starts without issue. I'd do the same if I didn't use E-10.

But in a vehicle that's driven on a regular basis? It will lighten your wallet, but not do anything else. I've used E-10 for 30+ years and never had a fuel related issue on any vehicle.


+1
We've had E10 here for decades and I've never had any problems related to it in any car or OPE engine.
I don't bother with Stabil nor anything else either.
I'm of the opinion that the problems E10 fuel causes are no more than an urban myth.
I've never seen them other than online.

 

[Jarlaxle]

Originally Posted By: kschachn
Can you explain what in the engine needs lubricity from the fuel?

Originally Posted By: 29662
The main drawbacks of Ethanol( at least for me). Are that it is hygroscopic and lacks lubricity. The former can be combated somewhat by filling at high volume gas stations, to ensure fresher gas. The latter by using a little tcw-3(500:1). Some of the better tcw-3's also have fuel stabilizers in them which would help with long term storage. Realistically none of this is necessary as long as you don't allow the gas to sit in the tank for too long.


Off the top of my head: what about the fuel pump?

 

[19jacobob93]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: 19jacobob93
And yes it is very common to increase mpg by up to 10% after adding TCW3

I'm surprised the government hasn't mandated the use of TCW3 in all gasoline in order to reduce our dependency on oil.

Hahah it will happen soon...
But for those that are sceptical there was a huge test done on an LS1 forum that has been going on for over 5 years, and at least 100 people tried it out. One or two people didn't notice much difference, but absolutely every other person reported quicker starting, smoother idle and acceleration and a cleaner fuel system and combustion chamber after a few tank fulls. A few people successfully used it to free stuck rings too. I've been using the stuff for a few months now and I'm sold on it

 

[SHOZ]

Reminds me of the Acetone in gas use.

 

[kschachn]

So I'm the "BITOG Sheriff" for asking questions? Hey, whatever.

So injectors need lubricating too? And to answer your question about lead, they added tetraethyllead to increase the apparent octane rating of gasoline. It never was used to add "lubricity" as you claim, it did have a side effect of helping to prevent valve seat to valve sticking or welding, but that was a relatively minor problem occurring in only certain engines and never was widespread. It was also cured with harder valve seats.

And once again here we go with the top end lubrication. What specifically is being lubricated that is well deserved?

Originally Posted By: 19jacobob93
Woah here comes the BITOG Sheriff...
And yes it is very common to increase mpg by up to 10% after adding TCW3 and some people have stated higher increases but I think their calculations are out somewhere unless they had a problem that it fixed.
Not only that but it is packed with detergents so can be used as a long term fuel system cleaner, will lubricate your fuel pump and injectors, and is an excellent UCL. For such a small price I see absolutely no reason not to add it since a 1L bottle cost about $6 and lasts 5 or 6 full tanks.
As for your comment about why does fuel need lubricity, why do you think they used to add lead? Why do valve saver fluids exist for older cars? And UCLs for newer cars... I will always add a UCL or TCW3 because it makes the car run much much smoother probably because the top end is getting some well deserved lubrication.

 

[SHOZ]

Only problem I have had with E10 since the early '80s is on small engines. Fuel lines on the trimmer and chain saw. And the stupid B&S carb set up where it drew fuel from a small reservoir on top of the fuel tank. It would get full of water.

 

[440Magnum]

Ethanol has a much worse reputation than it deserves as an additive. Its terrible as an alternative fuel, as E85 proves, but it does a lot of good as an additive. Its a good octane booster, its a great water remover and prevents corrosion as a result, and its a decent fuel system cleaner. Once you remove the few rubber components from OLD vehicles that are susceptible to damage, it does not cause any issues.

Yes, it lowers gas mileage. So do many additives in gasoline, to one degree or another. So did MTBE when it was used as ethanol is now, just not nearly as much since it had a higher energy density. But given its high toxicity and habit of seeking-and-destroying ground water, I'll take the ethanol. Ethanol's worst feature (IMO) is that it shortens the shelf (tank) life of gasoline more than most other oxygenate additives do.

 

[kschachn]

What about the claim of a 5-10% increase in fuel economy?

Originally Posted By: 19jacobob93
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: 19jacobob93
And yes it is very common to increase mpg by up to 10% after adding TCW3

I'm surprised the government hasn't mandated the use of TCW3 in all gasoline in order to reduce our dependency on oil.

Hahah it will happen soon...
But for those that are sceptical there was a huge test done on an LS1 forum that has been going on for over 5 years, and at least 100 people tried it out. One or two people didn't notice much difference, but absolutely every other person reported quicker starting, smoother idle and acceleration and a cleaner fuel system and combustion chamber after a few tank fulls. A few people successfully used it to free stuck rings too. I've been using the stuff for a few months now and I'm sold on it

 

[SHOZ]

I saw a 3 mpg increase with the switch to winter fuel last month. All E10.

 

[supton]

That seems odd. I thought winter gas had less btu's. The higher aromatics that they can't sell during the summer gets put back in. Butane, that sort of stuff.

I wouldn't mind finding some very large gas tanks at the moment and stocking up on gas. I think I saw $3.16 for RUG. At 50c more for diesel... I still have to drive the diesel, but makes me sometimes wonder.

 

[Quest]

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3442362/3/Laboratory_Analysis_of_MMO

Embrace ethanol blend gasoline in your OBD-II EFI equipped gasoline engine, which includes E85 varieties and simply drive away.

And in the case of fuel pump failure, simply blame them on your fuel pump manufacturer for their inability to come out with a decent (reliable) unit.

Aftereall: in our area we've been using ethanol blend for over 25+ yrs now, and other than a rather pesky Nissan fuel pump (replaced by stealerships twice so far, using OE pump), none of the EFI engined cars including Bosch or Nippon Denso, failed in less than 200k.

Also: I don't buy that Xylene or Toulene needed in gas (or added lubricity) talk, citing that other industrialised motoring nations including the Germans, Japanese, etc. never have to worry about lack of lubricity in their gas (would they also have mandated TCW-3 into gas, or MMO and the likes just to add lubricity into their injectors (any recorded case of premature injector pintle wear due to gas too "dry"? doubt it).

Trav can chime in for European or Germany gasoline part and EFI fuel injector lubricity part. Afterall: he has started doing fuel injector cleaning service and he can tell you a lot more than most BITOGers here....

Q.

 

[gizzsdad]

I've had two (one was a friend's) vehicles vapor lock on E10 in very hot weather. Ours was a Ford Ranger, friend's was a Chrysler minivan. A grizzled old mechanic, when told our symptoms, replied: "Running E10 right? Don't - and your problem goes away".

Never put any ethanol in again and never had the issue. I realize this is not exactly definitive proof - but I will drive miles out of my way to avoid ethanol.

And we live in the heart of corn/ethanol country. In fact, part of my wife's income comes indirectly from ethanol. I also sent the EPA a comment praising their proposal to reduce the RFS.

 

[Silverado12]

FWIW I use Lucas UCL at 3 oz per 10 gal. I get 5% better mpg consistently with it.