Best oil for BMW 335i N54 twin turbo?

[reb03]

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I'm surprised. I've run TWS 10w-60, GC 0w-30 and PP 5w-40 (all of which are BMW approved for the application) in my 2003 M5 S62 engine.

The lower the viscosity, the lower the running temperature - TWS runs hottest by about 10 degrees C. The difference increases on the track.

As for TWS and cold-start, it has the same pour point as GC (-54 degrees C) so cold starting is not an issue, at least down to about 0 degrees F.

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I had a 2003 E46 M3s with the S54 and the highest track temps I ever saw were ~275 during really hard running for 30mins. Due to the bearing failures with the early engines and the subsequent change to TWS 10w-60 I never experimented with other oils.

Interestingly, and more to your point, one 335 owner who is experimenting with the TWS 10w-60 did notice considerably higher (+10-15 degrees F) normal driving oil temps but cooler (-20-25 degrees F) track temps.

I just don’t know what to do on track days. I keep coming back to thinking that BMW engineers know a lot more about the N54 than I do and specified a heavy 5w-30 for a reason. But this 30w oil just doesn’t cut it for extended track time. Those two small turbos create a lot of extra heat.

With Terry’s help I’ll get this all sorted out and report back.

 

[johne123]

I just posted for the first time with my own thread and thought I'd mention here that BMW also worked with Peugot to do a DI engine in the Mini Cooper. I just bought an '07 Mini Cooper S with the turbo charged 1.6L version. I'm curious to see if this engine has fuel dilution problems. However, Peugot was the first manufacturer to do direct injection with gasoline. Hopefully that experience pays off. We'll see.

-John

 

[eldesperado]

RLI 5w40 is soooooo expensive.

 

[benjamming]

The engine in this beast is sooooooo much more expensive. You must pay to play.

 

[jaj]

My old-school S62 has a gear-type oil pump with a bypass valve driving oil through a full-flow oil-to-water oil cooler.

The newer in-line sixes have a variable volume pump that pumps less oil rather than bypassing it, and it's possible that the oil cooler valving is ECU-controlled and provides much more cooling when the engine works harder.

Of course, this could all be nonsense...

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Interestingly, and more to your point, one 335 owner who is experimenting with the TWS 10w-60 did notice considerably higher (+10-15 degrees F) normal driving oil temps but cooler (-20-25 degrees F) track temps.

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[reb03]

I posted in another thread that following my break-in oil change to GC at 1,500 miles I felt my engine ran smoother and revved freer and faster than it did before the change. I also initially stated it may have been my imagination.

But, this morning when I drove away the last thing on my mind was oil. I was rushing to the store for Motrin for my son with a 104 degree fever. After leaving my neighborhood I immediately noticed the engine felt smoother and revved effortlessly. Yep, makes me wonder why BMWNA doesn't use it here. Perhaps my UOA at 5k miles will provide some answers.

 

[fun2drive]

As a 335 owner and also an M3 owner I am still not clear on what oil is best. I changed my oil at 2700 miles and put the stock 5W30 BMW Castrol back in. I bought 15W50 Mobil1 thinking of changing to this oil at around 10K miles but I have some questions.
First the only analysis I have seen is for one 335 engine that still showed good TBNs at the change interval. Could this be this engine running a higher then normal dilution or is this endemic of all these engines meaning is there more evidence from oil analysis to support this claim?

I am a CCA BMW member and I recall Mike Miller in the Roundel Tech Talk section stating that the extended oil changes are nonesense and that 5W30 is too think and he was recommending 10W60 Castrol for this 335 engine. I think this was based on his experience and no scientific evidence.

My understanding of why BMW selected this oil (5W30) was that the pumping loss would be less then a heavier weight oil thus improving fuel economy. Also I would suspect that they don't want any issues with starting in cold climates.

My 335 never sees freezing thus the reason I am thinking of an oil other then 5W30 such as a Mobil1 15W50 or Castrol 10W40 synthetics.

I don't know what compromises BMW engineers have to make but for a car like mine that is never tracked, driven hard maybe once in a great while, lives in an environment that is well above freezing, I am thinking a heavier weight oil maybe in order.

I can see now that oil analysis is something I should have done on the first change and will do on the next change.

Changing oil at 1000 miles is insane for normal street driving. I would think if the car was tracked that it would be more of an anomoly then a standard data point. Would not a car that is tracked be exposed to a great deal of wide open throttle which I would think cause a good deal of excessive fuel to enter the oil?

I am an engineer by trade too but have no background but empirical exposure with other super charged and turbo charged engines of which none run oil as hot as this engine does.

I will do an oil analysis at the next change and now I am beginning to think maybe 7500 miles is a better choice. I will do my best to provide the analysis results to this forum as another data point.

Still unsure of what oil is really best for a daily driver 335...

 

[Cary]

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I am a CCA BMW member and I recall Mike Miller in the Roundel Tech Talk section stating that the extended oil changes are nonesense and that 5W30 is too think and he was recommending 10W60 Castrol for this 335 engine. I think this was based on his experience and no scientific evidence.

My understanding of why BMW selected this oil (5W30) was that the pumping loss would be less then a heavier weight oil thus improving fuel economy. Also I would suspect that they don't want any issues with starting in cold climates.

I will do an oil analysis at the next change and now I am beginning to think maybe 7500 miles is a better choice. I will do my best to provide the analysis results to this forum as another data point.

Still unsure of what oil is really best for a daily driver 335...

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To put it bluntly, Mike Miller is an idiot. He has somehow managed to do a great job at promoting himself, but has little in the way of factual knowledge.

BMW's 5w-30 oil is a relabled Castrol Group III oil that meets ACEA A3 spec and BMW LL-98, which means it is a very heavy 30 weight and not designed as an energy conserving oil. Since BMW LL-98 two newer standards have been promulgated LL-01 and LL-04. I would suggest you run a oil that meets at least one of these specs. Two oils that come to mind are Mobil 1 0w-40 and Valvoline Synthetic 5w-40, both of which are a better oil and the BMW branded oil. Either should comfortably make 7500 mile intervals. I would suggest you perform UOA's as you intend to given the high oils temps and lack of information on longer oil change intervals for this engine.

 

[jaj]

BMWNA recommends "High Performance Synthetic Oil 5w-30" for all BMW's except "M" models. They do not recommend any of the LL specs, mostly because the "Long Life" trademark belongs to Pennzoil in North America.

While your logic is compelling, it rests on the assumption that it's still the old repackaged TXT, and not one of the newer TXT products like TXT LL-04 5w-30 (see http://www.castrol.com/liveassets/bp_int...L04_01_06_d.pdf )


BMW hasn't changed the outside of the bottle, but that doesn't mean much when it comes to the inside.

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BMW's 5w-30 oil is a relabled Castrol Group III oil that meets ACEA A3 spec and BMW LL-98 which means it is a very heavy 30 weight and not designed as an energy conserving oil. Since BMW LL-98 two newer standards have been promulgated LL-01 and LL-04. I would suggest you run a oil that meets at least one of these specs. Two oils that come to mind are Mobil 1 0w-40 and Valvoline Synthetic 5w-40, both of which are a better oil and the BMW branded oil. Either should comfortably make 7500 mile intervals. I would suggest you perform UOA's as you intend to given the high oils temps and lack of information on longer oil change intervals for this engine.

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[buster]

I'm not familiar with BMW's but most seem to be low wearing engines. My fiance's father has a 2000 335i that has 160,000 on it (non turbo though) and it runs very good. I looked inside the filler cap and did see some varnish. If I had a BMW, I'd definitely use a high quality oil (most likely not a Castrol product) like Amsoil 5w-40 or 10w-40. I think the BMW Castrol 5w-30 has actually had some decent long drain reports on here if I can remember correctly. Without inspect the internals though, it's hard to know if deposits/sludge were kept in check.

 

[Cary]

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BMWNA recommends "High Performance Synthetic Oil 5w-30" for all BMW's except "M" models. They do not recommend any of the LL specs, mostly because the "Long Life" trademark belongs to Pennzoil in North America.

While your logic is compelling, it rests on the assumption that it's still the old repackaged TXT, and not one of the newer TXT products like TXT LL-04 5w-30 (see http://www.castrol.com/liveassets/bp_int...L04_01_06_d.pdf )


BMW hasn't changed the outside of the bottle, but that doesn't mean much when it comes to the inside.

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BMW USA has been so far behind on their oil recommendations, it is pathetic. They continue to recommend that you use Mobil 1 5w-30 if you can't find the factory oil, never recognizing that the 0w-40 that meets their specifications has been on the market for 7+ years now.

The BMW labled oil in the US continues to bear only LL-98 approval. I believe if it met LL-01 or LL-04 it would clearly be labled as such. As far as Pennzoil have a trademark on the LL symbol, if they do, it has not affect Mobil, Valvoline, or Castrol from stating when their oils meet a BMW LL standard.

I stand by my recommendation that I would use a LL-01 or LL-04 (we know that LL-01 requires a Group IV or V basestock while LL-98 does not)oil. The fact that BMW USA does not follow the specs set by BMW AG does not mean the owner looking to maximize the life of his engine should also ignore them.

 

[Cary]

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I'm not familiar with BMW's but most seem to be low wearing engines. My fiance's father has a 2000 335i that has 160,000 on it (non turbo though) and it runs very good.

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The first year of production of a 335i was 2006, before then no such creature existed. A 2000 3 series in the US would be a 323i or 328i using the M52 engine, a different engine than the new turbo engine.

 

[Lonnie]

Am I reading your flash temps correct. Are they close to temps you are seeing in your oil?

 

[Nederlander75]

330 and 328 or 325 I think.

 

[Hammer]

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330 and 328 or 325 I think.

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Cary is correct....Just 328 or 323.

The 330 and 325 didn't come out until 2001.

Hammer

 

[fun2drive]

When I changed my oil I was pretty sure the bottle purchased from BMW did have LL-04 on the back label. I do have some Germany Castrol that is 10W40 syn and the Mobil 1 15W50 as replacements.
I don't see that running a quality oil that is a heavier weight will hurt anything given my car never sees lower temperatures.

In regard to Mike Miller of BMW CCA being an idiot, everyone is entitled to their opinion and I for one have been helped with BMW related problems by Mr Miller so I think a statement like that is unwarranted. He may not be an oil expert but he seems to have a good deal of useful knowledge for those of us that actual repair our cars...

 

[buster]

Have there been engine failures in BMW's due to the extended drain intervals and subpar oil being used in some cases?

BMW NA should team up with Severus and get a real factory fill oil.

 

[reb03]

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BMW NA should team up with Severus and get a real factory fill oil.

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Isn't GC 0w-30, which is factory fill in Europe, a "real" oil? It certainly seems to agree with my engine but only a UOA in a few thousand miles will tell the whole story.

Can anyone answer the question as to why BMWNA uses the LL-98 5w-30 in the US and not the true synthetic 0w-30?

 

[Quattro Pete]

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Isn't GC 0w-30, which is factory fill in Europe, a "real" oil? It certainly seems to agree with my engine but only a UOA in a few thousand miles will tell the whole story.

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How do we know for sure that GC 0w-30 is the factory fill?

 

[reb03]

A guy over at e90post.com who lives in Switzerland reported this.