Only way to fit your budget and dreams.
Best budget fun car - Porsche vs. BMW vs. Pontiac?
- Thread starter zanzabar
- Start date
- Status
Only way to fit your budget and dreams.
Originally Posted By: ls1mike
What the heck kind of cars are you racing? I have a 14 year old Trans Am that sees a lot of track time and except for a new Mcleod twin disk, fluid changes and a bunch of aftermarket go fast stuff the rest of the stuff you mention is bone stock excpet for the revlaved Bilstiens I have on it. Stock timing components, stock brake componets, new tires that work for the street and track. Original steering rack, ball joints, tie rod ends and I race with a ton of Corvette, F-body, and GTO guys. I can't think of one guy who has had to replace any of that stuff unless they wrecked or they wanted to.
If you need extra tires and all that stuff you car was meant to beat on.
The vast majority of cars are designed to survive the warranty period and enough beyond to ensure resale value for brand promotion. Wear items wear. Rubber dries out/cracks. In any car over ten years all the items I listed are suspect. You may not need to do all of them off the bat, but they will have to be checked and maintained. I had to do a suspension rebuild on a 2000 Miata, bushings and struts shot. I think I replaced on ball joint as well. That was a few years back.
Every make/model has it's quirks (like intake manifold failures on your trans-am). Some more than others. A lot has to do with how well abused the car was before you get hold of it. The vast majority of owners will drive a car until it dies or fails inspection in a major way...
What the heck kind of cars are you racing? I have a 14 year old Trans Am that sees a lot of track time and except for a new Mcleod twin disk, fluid changes and a bunch of aftermarket go fast stuff the rest of the stuff you mention is bone stock excpet for the revlaved Bilstiens I have on it. Stock timing components, stock brake componets, new tires that work for the street and track. Original steering rack, ball joints, tie rod ends and I race with a ton of Corvette, F-body, and GTO guys. I can't think of one guy who has had to replace any of that stuff unless they wrecked or they wanted to.
If you need extra tires and all that stuff you car was meant to beat on.
The vast majority of cars are designed to survive the warranty period and enough beyond to ensure resale value for brand promotion. Wear items wear. Rubber dries out/cracks. In any car over ten years all the items I listed are suspect. You may not need to do all of them off the bat, but they will have to be checked and maintained. I had to do a suspension rebuild on a 2000 Miata, bushings and struts shot. I think I replaced on ball joint as well. That was a few years back.
Every make/model has it's quirks (like intake manifold failures on your trans-am). Some more than others. A lot has to do with how well abused the car was before you get hold of it. The vast majority of owners will drive a car until it dies or fails inspection in a major way...
BMW m3 e36 or 46, but 46 might be still out of price range unless you find high mileage one, trust me parts are plenty.
For your budget I think a third gen mass-air TPI WS6 Formula or fourth Gen mass-air LT1 car would be the way to go. The LS1 gets expensive. All you would need on a WS6 car to run on a road course would be some nice tires, maybe some brake pads and you are GTG. 225-285HP on a nice, flat handling chassis with the WS6 brakes is all you need. Don't read into the hype about LS1s either, they are nice, but an LT4 hot-cam and a set of real gears and those LT1/L98 cars get mighty rowdy. 3 grand wont touch a GTO, they have a cultish following, were like 30K+ new and are way too nice for the money you are talking about. Truthfully, a nice WS6 car may be out of your range too. Manage your expectations, get realistic about your budget and think it through. People bag on Lt1s and L98 cars, but a 150mph street car is NO JOKE. With a few mods and a few racing schools for you they will dominate on the track. People tend to lose perspective in this era of 500+HP Z06s and 630+HP ZR1s, but there is nowhere in America that all that extra performance makes a difference on a public road that won't constitute a felony.
'95 M3, tho' more expensive in California because '95 is prior to OBD-II so you have more flexibility in front of the cats.
Kevin
Kevin
Why not a Pontiac G8 GT or even GXP ?
With 4 doors it will actually fit your family and perform fun well.
With 4 doors it will actually fit your family and perform fun well.
Originally Posted By: Smokescreen
Why not a Pontiac G8 GT or even GXP ?
With 4 doors it will actually fit your family and perform fun well.
Those cars will cost twice what he is talking about.
Why not a Pontiac G8 GT or even GXP ?
With 4 doors it will actually fit your family and perform fun well.
Those cars will cost twice what he is talking about.
ls1mike
$50 Site Donor 2024
Originally Posted By: 05LGTLtd
Originally Posted By: ls1mike
What the heck kind of cars are you racing? I have a 14 year old Trans Am that sees a lot of track time and except for a new Mcleod twin disk, fluid changes and a bunch of aftermarket go fast stuff the rest of the stuff you mention is bone stock excpet for the revlaved Bilstiens I have on it. Stock timing components, stock brake componets, new tires that work for the street and track. Original steering rack, ball joints, tie rod ends and I race with a ton of Corvette, F-body, and GTO guys. I can't think of one guy who has had to replace any of that stuff unless they wrecked or they wanted to.
If you need extra tires and all that stuff you car was meant to beat on.
Every make/model has it's quirks (like intake manifold failures on your trans-am). Some more than others. A lot has to do with how well abused the car was before you get hold of it. The vast majority of owners will drive a car until it dies or fails inspection in a major way...
Not sure what intake manifold gaskets you speak of unless you are talking LT1 cars. The LS1s have a dry intake and rarely if ever need replacing infact if you pull the manifold the gasket is reusable.
Originally Posted By: ls1mike
What the heck kind of cars are you racing? I have a 14 year old Trans Am that sees a lot of track time and except for a new Mcleod twin disk, fluid changes and a bunch of aftermarket go fast stuff the rest of the stuff you mention is bone stock excpet for the revlaved Bilstiens I have on it. Stock timing components, stock brake componets, new tires that work for the street and track. Original steering rack, ball joints, tie rod ends and I race with a ton of Corvette, F-body, and GTO guys. I can't think of one guy who has had to replace any of that stuff unless they wrecked or they wanted to.
If you need extra tires and all that stuff you car was meant to beat on.
Every make/model has it's quirks (like intake manifold failures on your trans-am). Some more than others. A lot has to do with how well abused the car was before you get hold of it. The vast majority of owners will drive a car until it dies or fails inspection in a major way...
Not sure what intake manifold gaskets you speak of unless you are talking LT1 cars. The LS1s have a dry intake and rarely if ever need replacing infact if you pull the manifold the gasket is reusable.
ls1mike
$50 Site Donor 2024
Originally Posted By: 95busa
For your budget I think a third gen mass-air TPI WS6 Formula or fourth Gen mass-air LT1 car would be the way to go. The LS1 gets expensive. All you would need on a WS6 car to run on a road course would be some nice tires, maybe some brake pads and you are GTG. 225-285HP on a nice, flat handling chassis with the WS6 brakes is all you need. Don't read into the hype about LS1s either, they are nice, but an LT4 hot-cam and a set of real gears and those LT1/L98 cars get mighty rowdy. 3 grand wont touch a GTO, they have a cultish following, were like 30K+ new and are way too nice for the money you are talking about. Truthfully, a nice WS6 car may be out of your range too. Manage your expectations, get realistic about your budget and think it through. People bag on Lt1s and L98 cars, but a 150mph street car is NO JOKE. With a few mods and a few racing schools for you they will dominate on the track. People tend to lose perspective in this era of 500+HP Z06s and 630+HP ZR1s, but there is nowhere in America that all that extra performance makes a difference on a public road that won't constitute a felony.
I have had two LT1 cars, one L98 Corvette, and 3 LS1 cars.
The first two don't hold a candle to what a stock LS1 can do. Mod for mod goes the same. No Optispark, dry intakes, no TPI intake that runs out of breath around 4800 rpm, cheap to maintain. Not saying they are bad, just don't compare to an LS1 when you are talking maintenance and power potential.
Why a WS6?, get a Normal Z28 or Trans Am...You are talking a little different exhaust, and some better sway bars 17 inch, vice 16 inch rims on the 4th gen. Same brakes and drivetrain. Not worth it. I bought mine used and got a deal. You can buy better sway bars and exhaust for what you will pay for a nice WS6 and be ahead on money.
The third gens had more differences, but if you wan't a manual, you get a 305...
For your budget I think a third gen mass-air TPI WS6 Formula or fourth Gen mass-air LT1 car would be the way to go. The LS1 gets expensive. All you would need on a WS6 car to run on a road course would be some nice tires, maybe some brake pads and you are GTG. 225-285HP on a nice, flat handling chassis with the WS6 brakes is all you need. Don't read into the hype about LS1s either, they are nice, but an LT4 hot-cam and a set of real gears and those LT1/L98 cars get mighty rowdy. 3 grand wont touch a GTO, they have a cultish following, were like 30K+ new and are way too nice for the money you are talking about. Truthfully, a nice WS6 car may be out of your range too. Manage your expectations, get realistic about your budget and think it through. People bag on Lt1s and L98 cars, but a 150mph street car is NO JOKE. With a few mods and a few racing schools for you they will dominate on the track. People tend to lose perspective in this era of 500+HP Z06s and 630+HP ZR1s, but there is nowhere in America that all that extra performance makes a difference on a public road that won't constitute a felony.
I have had two LT1 cars, one L98 Corvette, and 3 LS1 cars.
The first two don't hold a candle to what a stock LS1 can do. Mod for mod goes the same. No Optispark, dry intakes, no TPI intake that runs out of breath around 4800 rpm, cheap to maintain. Not saying they are bad, just don't compare to an LS1 when you are talking maintenance and power potential.
Why a WS6?, get a Normal Z28 or Trans Am...You are talking a little different exhaust, and some better sway bars 17 inch, vice 16 inch rims on the 4th gen. Same brakes and drivetrain. Not worth it. I bought mine used and got a deal. You can buy better sway bars and exhaust for what you will pay for a nice WS6 and be ahead on money.
The third gens had more differences, but if you wan't a manual, you get a 305...
I had an LT4 vette with a tune, corsa pipes, 4.10-1 gears and an airbox and it ran like a raped ape. While I have ridden in (not driven) a modded WS6 01 T/A, I have to say the LT4 didnt feel like it gave much up. Remember, the LT4 was underrated by GM, it was more like a 365hp car than a 330hp one, underrating was done to keep new LS1 Vette buyers from feeling robbed.
Not bagging on the LS1, but cost up front is definitely higher. Opti is around $300, not too high, although it is some work. Like I say, gears and an LT4 hot cam and you are talking 400hp with a tune on an lt4 car, maybe 360ish on an LT1. Bilstein shocks on my buddys ws6 car stock....just set up better out the gate. To take a non-WS6 car you are 30hp down, may be stuck with 2.73-1 gears with no posi, etc. To pull 30hp out of the car, bigger wheels, 275 section 17" tires, sway bars, bilsteins, a posi unit,gear swap, etc. It is a pretty good package, and I would say you are talking a few grand to re-create it (tires, etc included). To each his own though, but I would rather start with a better equipped car right out the gate. Once again- much love for LS series engines, but when you are trying to get a hot rod for 3 grand, the upfront cost seems critical
Not bagging on the LS1, but cost up front is definitely higher. Opti is around $300, not too high, although it is some work. Like I say, gears and an LT4 hot cam and you are talking 400hp with a tune on an lt4 car, maybe 360ish on an LT1. Bilstein shocks on my buddys ws6 car stock....just set up better out the gate. To take a non-WS6 car you are 30hp down, may be stuck with 2.73-1 gears with no posi, etc. To pull 30hp out of the car, bigger wheels, 275 section 17" tires, sway bars, bilsteins, a posi unit,gear swap, etc. It is a pretty good package, and I would say you are talking a few grand to re-create it (tires, etc included). To each his own though, but I would rather start with a better equipped car right out the gate. Once again- much love for LS series engines, but when you are trying to get a hot rod for 3 grand, the upfront cost seems critical
ls1mike
$50 Site Donor 2024
Problem is if you find an LT4 car you are paying a premium.
When you talk F-bodies. WS6, SS, Trans Am or Z28(4th gen). Automatics got 2.73 or 3.23. All 6 speed cars got a 3.42.
In the LS1 or LT1 world, the difference in 1/4 miles times and laps between a WS6, SS, Trans Am or Z28 is measured in hunderths of second, that means there is not any difference. This has been discussed in lenght on the LS boards and proven on the Dyno. On average, unless you got a ringer, HP and torque number were within about 10 HP and 15 FT/lbs for all F-bodies.
I had two Z28 LS1 cars and the current WS6. You would be hard pressed to tell the difference bewteen them except the WS6 came with the Hurst Shifter. Infact my 01 Z28 was faster bone stock than the 00 Trans Am WS6. It came from the factory with an LS6 intake (01 and 02) and different casting heads. They just made more power. The 01 Z28 Dynoed higher than the WS6 and 98 Z28.
When you talk F-bodies. WS6, SS, Trans Am or Z28(4th gen). Automatics got 2.73 or 3.23. All 6 speed cars got a 3.42.
In the LS1 or LT1 world, the difference in 1/4 miles times and laps between a WS6, SS, Trans Am or Z28 is measured in hunderths of second, that means there is not any difference. This has been discussed in lenght on the LS boards and proven on the Dyno. On average, unless you got a ringer, HP and torque number were within about 10 HP and 15 FT/lbs for all F-bodies.
I had two Z28 LS1 cars and the current WS6. You would be hard pressed to tell the difference bewteen them except the WS6 came with the Hurst Shifter. Infact my 01 Z28 was faster bone stock than the 00 Trans Am WS6. It came from the factory with an LS6 intake (01 and 02) and different casting heads. They just made more power. The 01 Z28 Dynoed higher than the WS6 and 98 Z28.
Roger that, and no issues with anything you are saying. I am just saying if the dude wants to spend 3 grand, he has budget issues, and a car closer to track ready out the box is where I would think he would get the most value at his price point. LT cars are way cheaper up front, so thats where I would spend my money. If he said he had 6-8K to spend, 01-02 WS6 car would be my choice. I believe the WS6 cars got a Torsen diff, which would seem to be something mighty expensive to duplicate in the aftermarket. No problem man, we dont have to agree!
I had a '97 LT1 Z28 and loved it.
I traded it in on an '02 LS1 Z28 and love it.
I think you get what you pay for with an LS1. The engine weighs about 100 pounds less than the LT1, so the car is better balanced. And LS1 cars came with bigger brakes from the factory, but they're still not big enough. The last LS1 Camaro's were built 12 years ago, so they're not going to break the bank. The hard part will be finding one that hasn't been ruined by adolescent driving.
Clutches, shifters, syncros, and rear ends don't last long doing regular hole shots. The original transmission in mine lasted 193k miles, then had to be rebuilt when reverse got hard to find. And my transmission had never, never, never been speed shifted. The clutch disc still had half its wear material on it, but I put in a low inertia flywheel and replacement disk and pressure plate when the trans was rebuilt.
The chronic problem in F-bodies that are used in track days are outboard axle bearings and axle shaft bearing races. I went through 4 sets of axles in 190K miles on mine. Then I had a custom rear end built that uses heavy duty outboard axle bearings and pressed-in axles. C-clip axles are for the birds.
Oh yeah, and front wheel bearings, too.
I traded it in on an '02 LS1 Z28 and love it.
I think you get what you pay for with an LS1. The engine weighs about 100 pounds less than the LT1, so the car is better balanced. And LS1 cars came with bigger brakes from the factory, but they're still not big enough. The last LS1 Camaro's were built 12 years ago, so they're not going to break the bank. The hard part will be finding one that hasn't been ruined by adolescent driving.
Clutches, shifters, syncros, and rear ends don't last long doing regular hole shots. The original transmission in mine lasted 193k miles, then had to be rebuilt when reverse got hard to find. And my transmission had never, never, never been speed shifted. The clutch disc still had half its wear material on it, but I put in a low inertia flywheel and replacement disk and pressure plate when the trans was rebuilt.
The chronic problem in F-bodies that are used in track days are outboard axle bearings and axle shaft bearing races. I went through 4 sets of axles in 190K miles on mine. Then I had a custom rear end built that uses heavy duty outboard axle bearings and pressed-in axles. C-clip axles are for the birds.
Oh yeah, and front wheel bearings, too.
Last edited:
ls1mike
$50 Site Donor 2024
The 10 bolt in general is weak. I have had to replace a few.
The guts are not robust enought at that power level.
A good launch even on the street can break it.
I have broke both the Torsen and Auburn units.
The Trans Am has a 9 inch.
Never had too much trouble with my T56s, but I have had the reverse problem in the Trans Am, got that fixed.
Have not had the pleasure of having to do front wheel bearings on any of mine.
At any rate at the OPs target price he is not going to find much of anything he listed.
I just recently watched a 1998 6 speed Z28 with 122,000 miles on it sell for $4000. It was pretty clean, not sure how it was mechanically.
The guts are not robust enought at that power level.
A good launch even on the street can break it.
I have broke both the Torsen and Auburn units.
The Trans Am has a 9 inch.
Never had too much trouble with my T56s, but I have had the reverse problem in the Trans Am, got that fixed.
Have not had the pleasure of having to do front wheel bearings on any of mine.
At any rate at the OPs target price he is not going to find much of anything he listed.
I just recently watched a 1998 6 speed Z28 with 122,000 miles on it sell for $4000. It was pretty clean, not sure how it was mechanically.
Really good ideas everyone, y'all are a wealth of info.
The one part I don't understand is the comment about adding a roll bar to a convertible will make it not street legal. I can't find any info on that.
I must say I'm more inclined to look for a smaller car with good balance rather than a straight-line high displacement screamer. And yeah, the budget was a bit ambitious for a GTO. But I'm really just not into F-body or Mustangs so leaning more towards the BMW M3, VW GTI, etc. There are tons of 944s on CL around here though...
The one part I don't understand is the comment about adding a roll bar to a convertible will make it not street legal. I can't find any info on that.
I must say I'm more inclined to look for a smaller car with good balance rather than a straight-line high displacement screamer. And yeah, the budget was a bit ambitious for a GTO. But I'm really just not into F-body or Mustangs so leaning more towards the BMW M3, VW GTI, etc. There are tons of 944s on CL around here though...
A three grand car with either a BMW or Porsche badge will be rolling junk.
A three grand GTO would be pretty hard to find.
Of the three, the Pontiac would be the no-brainer choice.
I doubt that you'll find one within your budget, though.
Good hunting!
A three grand GTO would be pretty hard to find.
Of the three, the Pontiac would be the no-brainer choice.
I doubt that you'll find one within your budget, though.
Good hunting!
The Pontiac GTO makes me nervous for one reason: The short production run might make replacement parts hard to get. Sure, there were variants in other countries, but I saw that there were multiple changes to sell it in the USA. For one thing, they had to relocate the fuel tank to pass US crash tests, when compared to the Holden variant.
A couple other people mentioned it but in my biased opinion the S2000 is going to be one of your best bets for a budget fun car even though it doesn't have back seats. It's purpose-built with some incredible Honda engineering behind it. You can drive it 2 hours to the track, run it hard all day, drive it home, wash it, and then take the Mrs for a ride the next day. Over the past year or two there have been several articles written noting how good it is/was in addition to the praise it got when it was in production.
Given your choices in the OP I'd go with the BMW without hesitation. At the track days I attend the biggest presences are always Miatas, BMWs, S2000s, and Corvettes. Those naturally-aspirated BMW models, if maintained properly (a huge help if you can do it yourself) are as reliable as anything else out there; not to mention there's a good support community behind all of the models I just listed.
What I would not do is get any convertible that isn't an S2000 or Miata if you intend to run on the track. If it wasn't purpose-built you're going to be adding weight and sapping performance from a car that was designed with the original intent of being a sedan.
Most organizations on most tracks I've encountered will let an S2000 run with the integrated roll hoops provided you can pass a broomstick test. The same applies to other convertibles with integrated roll protection (but see above).
Given your choices in the OP I'd go with the BMW without hesitation. At the track days I attend the biggest presences are always Miatas, BMWs, S2000s, and Corvettes. Those naturally-aspirated BMW models, if maintained properly (a huge help if you can do it yourself) are as reliable as anything else out there; not to mention there's a good support community behind all of the models I just listed.
What I would not do is get any convertible that isn't an S2000 or Miata if you intend to run on the track. If it wasn't purpose-built you're going to be adding weight and sapping performance from a car that was designed with the original intent of being a sedan.
Most organizations on most tracks I've encountered will let an S2000 run with the integrated roll hoops provided you can pass a broomstick test. The same applies to other convertibles with integrated roll protection (but see above).
Last edited:
- Status