"Be Careful"

[Kira]

Doesn't anyone acknowledge how dangerous dull knives in a kitchen are?

 

[leadcounsel]

the odds of dying in a car accident are 1 in 107
Can you accept that risk?

I've never seen that particularly statistic, but if there is a 1% lifetime average of the cause of death being an auto accident, I'd accept that. Autos are a indispensable form of transportation, that can be mitigated (as I do) by eliminating most driving that is unnecessary, driving intelligently, using seatbelts, driving safe vehicles in a safe manner, etc. There's no other practical alternative for intermediate and long-range trips and at auto of some form is universally required.

Using these figures, which show a MC is 28x more likely, odds being 28x higher, it still boggles my mind that folks would accept that ultra high risk. Proportionally and extrapolated it would likely be its own category of the 4th or 5th leading cause of death. In my life I've personally met or known, or had in my circle of acquaintances, several who died or were crippled from MC accidents. The same is not true of cars.

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/databriefs/db427.pdf

This thread has gone from an innocent post to dumb and dumber.

I agree.

I see idiots riding motorcycles and doing dangerous stuff all the time. Lots of them seem to ride angry and just look for a fight with a vehicle. Dumb as dumb can be.
From the sounds of it you were one of them.

Nope. I was early 20s, young, and uninformed. I didn't have anyone wise to help guide me in some important decisions. Got the bike for all the reasons most men get them. I was not an angry driver nor looking for a fight with anyone. I took professional training. But the highways were absolutely terrifying, got caught in really dangerous positions - once I was the oreo filling between a two semi-trucks with nary 2 car lengths between them. Petrifying. Nearly dumped once at high speed when going into a turn too fast, had several cars nearly hit me, etc. Got caught on the highway in a flash rainstorm with high winds. Nearly hit road debris that could have been a disaster. I've spoken to many riders and that's just a regular Tuesday on a bike. Survivability of any of that is very low if it goes sideways. In a car, eh, survival odds are much higher. Oh, and it's not nearly as glamourous having a woman on back of the bike as it appears. It's very stressful, b/c now this person's life is in your hands and a passenger changes the entire dynamic of the bike especially in turns. Thinking back on it it was just really foolish.

You've obviously never ridden motorcycles. There doesn't have to be a "tangible reason" except that people want to and have the freedom to choose to ride for whatever reason they decide. Why do people do other activities that can also be dangerous, like: skydive, rock/mountain climbing, hanglide/paraglide, etc ... because they want to, and find it an enjoyable activity. That's the reason most people do most things in life.

I have, and now you're attacking my character suggesting I'm lying. What do I have to gain from lying?

There really should be a notable tangible reason, for doing such extremely dangerous behavior. Otherwise it seems a frivolous game of roulette with a loaded gun. MCs result in around 5,000 dead and 90,000 injured annually, a very high percentage of MC riders. None of those other activities you cited, or other sports, carry the high rate of injuries and fatalities.

I've never once advocated against liberties or suggested any outlaws on bikes, so you're misconstruing or misrepresenting my position in addition to saying I'm lying. I have merely suggested people be smarter. We have a myriad of (sadly decreasing) liberties. There's lots of dangerous and stupid behaviors we can do. I chose not to do them. YMMV.

If someone believes the only reason we ride is because of how it looks or social considerations, that alone tells me that he's not understanding the reason why *most* of us choose to take the risk.

Hogwash. Style, looks, and social considerations are a large part of it. The bikes, the gear, the lifestyle, the community, I'd estimate >80%. There's at least biker club right in my town. Big groups of mostly men in outfits living a certain lifestyle. Most bikers buy certain outfits and bikes for the style and appearance. The "feel" of going really fast and having the autonomy a bike can provide, being about 15%. The other 5% is variable. That's my take.

I feel similarly about the rule of law and lawyers...

I also don't like most ROL or lawyers! But the interesting thing is that one develops (or tends to develop) a lot of critical thinking and knowledge. I think also my time in the military, learning how to develop risk assessment models, helped too. Most people in society just plainly lack critical thinking or risk assessment abilities.

This thread has exposed some of this. For instance, if I were pro-Motorcycle and wanted to try to defend that position, I would defend it better than as evidence herein. The pro-MC brigade here, in a odd attempt at defending MC riding as safe and fine, has presented the "what-about-isms" of notoriously unwise and unsafe behavior, that society universally says is unsafe and unwise. You cannot make this stuff up, it's hilarious.

Major causes of death and injuries, along with other dangerous behaviors cited in this thread include: obesity, unsafe sex with strangers, drunk driving, medical errors, gun fights, strokes, dangerous illegal drugs, even using dull knives, etc. Citing these does not help the pro-MC argument. Because a parent would counsel a child to not do these things, or counsel them of the dangers of eating unhealthy foods, not exercising, getting in gun fights, doing heroin, etc. I agree, MCs are in this category of things to avoid being a participant. To that point, I agree, a wise parent would tell a child, motorcycles are a poor choice due to their extremely high risks. I do find it funny when the side I'm debating, cites examples that harm their position, however. Keep 'em coming. Conversely, per 100,000 people, I've made analogies with being the victim of a violent crime vs. MC riding, and your odds on a MC are very bad.

In the end, MC riding is participating in a known highly dangerous activity that urges training and wearing of extra PPE (which many omit), an activity that carries a 28x higher risk of fatality (that doesn't include the 90,000 annual injuries), than other safer forms of transit like a passenger car. I don't see how a rational person - including myself- concludes this is a wise choice. I had a bike for a few years, and concluded it was suicidal and got rid of it. That was long before I learned these stats.

 

[Astro14]

Doesn't anyone acknowledge how dangerous dull knives in a kitchen are?

Which is why I kept Mrs. Astro’s set sharp.

 

[leadcounsel]

Which is why I kept Mrs. Astro’s set sharp.

Wisdom! Don't use dull knives. They are more dangerous.

 

[alarmguy]

Nope. I was early 20s, young, and uninformed. I didn't have anyone wise to help guide me in some important decisions.

This is why the voting age should be raised to at least 21 years old maybe even 25. Because the only one guiding the vast majority of young voters are college professors as kids cannot think for themselves.
Pretty stupid if you think about it, you can’t drink or smoke in till you’re 21 but you could vote for the most important office in the world.

One thing we can agree on motorcycles are too dangerous for you. I can only guess you would never climb a mountain or go skydiving and most likely please try to keep yourself out of the hospital, because the biggest chance of dying from any cause it’s a medical error

 

[tbm5690]

There are too many variables in this to say whether it's too high a risk or not, and risk is subjective to the person and situation. My personal situation involves commuting on a bike 8 miles one way on a dead-straight, dead flat county highway at 65mph. I can see every car coming upwards of a mile away. I feel quite safe when riding. Would I feel the same on a busy multi-lane highway or twisty back roads with poor visibility around the next turn? No. Am I aware of the risk and do I keep my head on a swivel to mitigate? Yes...I accept the risks just like every other choice carries in life to varying extents.

 

[CleanSump]

One thing we can agree on motorcycles are too dangerous for you. I can only guess you would never climb a mountain or go skydiving and most likely please try to keep yourself out of the hospital, because the biggest chance of dying from any cause it’s a medical error

Oh my gosh! I'm so lucky. I've done all of those things and I'm still alive.
I've read of quite a few shootings taking place in court rooms. Best stay out of them.

 

[ZeeOSix]

I've never seen that particularly statistic, but if there is a 1% lifetime average of the cause of death being an auto accident, I'd accept that. Autos are a indispensable form of transportation, that can be mitigated (as I do) by eliminating most driving that is unnecessary, driving intelligently, using seatbelts, driving safe vehicles in a safe manner, etc. There's no other practical alternative for intermediate and long-range trips and at auto of some form is universally required.

Using these figures, which show a MC is 28x more likely, odds being 28x higher, it still boggles my mind that folks would accept that ultra high risk. Proportionally and extrapolated it would likely be its own category of the 4th or 5th leading cause of death. In my life I've personally met or known, or had in my circle of acquaintances, several who died or were crippled from MC accidents. The same is not true of cars.

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/databriefs/db427.pdf

What's that linked PDF have to do with anything about motorcycle death statistics? The word motorcycle isn't mentioned once in that PDF.

Nope. I was early 20s, young, and uninformed. I didn't have anyone wise to help guide me in some important decisions. Got the bike for all the reasons most men get them. I was not an angry driver nor looking for a fight with anyone. I took professional training. But the highways were absolutely terrifying, got caught in really dangerous positions - once I was the oreo filling between a two semi-trucks with nary 2 car lengths between them. Petrifying. Nearly dumped once at high speed when going into a turn too fast, had several cars nearly hit me, etc. Got caught on the highway in a flash rainstorm with high winds. Nearly hit road debris that could have been a disaster. I've spoken to many riders and that's just a regular Tuesday on a bike. Survivability of any of that is very low if it goes sideways. In a car, eh, survival odds are much higher. Oh, and it's not nearly as glamourous having a woman on back of the bike as it appears. It's very stressful, b/c now this person's life is in your hands and a passenger changes the entire dynamic of the bike especially in turns. Thinking back on it it was just really foolish.

I have, and now you're attacking my character suggesting I'm lying. What do I have to gain from lying?

Not calling you a "liar" ... I just didn't see that in one of your posts and seemed you weren't coming across as a cycle rider. Your "preaching" on the subject matter becomes like Charlie Brown listening to his teacher after a few of you posts, so guess I missed that earlier. What you've since described above about your previous riding experience, it sounds like you were a typical young rider that never really mastered the skills to ride well. People are either born to ride, or they are not. Lot's of people start out riding and not finding it enjoyable, and stop riding ... and others like it and continue riding, learning and improving their skills and riding knowledge.

There really should be a notable tangible reason, for doing such extremely dangerous behavior. Otherwise it seems a frivolous game of roulette with a loaded gun. MCs result in around 5,000 dead and 90,000 injured annually, a very high percentage of MC riders. None of those other activities you cited, or other sports, carry the high rate of injuries and fatalities. I've never once advocated against liberties or suggested any outlaws on bikes, so you're misconstruing or misrepresenting my position in addition to saying I'm lying. I have merely suggested people be smarter. We have a myriad of (sadly decreasing) liberties. There's lots of dangerous and stupid behaviors we can do. I chose not to do them. YMMV. .

That wasn't my point for mentioning other dangerous activities. My point was people do dangerous activities because they enjoy the activities, and want to for their own reasons. All your postings isn't going to change anybody's mind. If you think riding is not for you, then great ... but acting like some anit-motorcyclist evangelist isn't going to get you anywhere.

As I mentioned earlier, most motorcycle crashes are singe vehicle because the rider was riding over their head for the stiuation, hot-dogging and often time under the influence of drugs/alcohol. Many of the crashes people do in cars also have the same factors involved - reckless driving, inattentiveness, drug/alcohol, etc. One factor that car drivers have that motorcycle drivers don't is inattentive driving by doing all kinds of distractible things in a car like eating, doing makeup, cell phone use, distractions of other people in the car, etc, etc.

Hogwash. Style, looks, and social considerations are a large part of it. The bikes, the gear, the lifestyle, the community, I'd estimate >80%. There's at least biker club right in my town. Big groups of mostly men in outfits living a certain lifestyle. Most bikers buy certain outfits and bikes for the style and appearance. The "feel" of going really fast and having the autonomy a bike can provide, being about 15%. The other 5% is variable. That's my take.

Are you jealous of other people's lifestyles, or do they personally impact you in anyway? More Charlie Brown whaa, whaa, whaa it seems to me.

This thread has exposed some of this. For instance, if I were pro-Motorcycle and wanted to try to defend that position, I would defend it better than as evidence herein. The pro-MC brigade here, in a odd attempt at defending MC riding as safe and fine, has presented the "what-about-isms" of notoriously unwise and unsafe behavior, that society universally says is unsafe and unwise. You cannot make this stuff up, it's hilarious.

Nobody here that rides has claimed it's "safe" and without its risks. Nothing is totally "safe" in life except never getting out of bed, and if you stay there long enough you're health will deteriorate and you'll die sooner than later too, or a wind storm might blow a tree down that crashes through your bedroom and kills you, lol. As pointed out, there are lots of dangerous activities that people do, and in all of those activities the risks are reduced when people are skilled and knowledgeably about the risks and take actions to mitigate those risks as much as possible.

Major causes of death and injuries, along with other dangerous behaviors cited in this thread include: obesity, unsafe sex with strangers, drunk driving, medical errors, gun fights, strokes, dangerous illegal drugs, even using dull knives, etc. Citing these does not help the pro-MC argument. Because a parent would counsel a child to not do these things, or counsel them of the dangers of eating unhealthy foods, not exercising, getting in gun fights, doing heroin, etc. I agree, MCs are in this category of things to avoid being a participant. To that point, I agree, a wise parent would tell a child, motorcycles are a poor choice due to their extremely high risks.

Adults make up their own minds ... don't try to be a "parent" amongst adults. Preach to your own kids ... beyond that you're wasting your time as an anti-motorcylist evangelist.

In the end, MC riding is participating in a known highly dangerous activity that urges training and wearing of extra PPE (which many omit), an activity that carries a 28x higher risk of fatality (that doesn't include the 90,000 annual injuries), than other safer forms of transit like a passenger car. I don't see how a rational person - including myself- concludes this is a wise choice. I had a bike for a few years, and concluded it was suicidal and got rid of it. That was long before I learned these stats.

That's your decision, and rightly so ... but don't try to "decide" what other people should do.

 

[leadcounsel]

This is why the voting age should be raised to at least 21 years old maybe even 25. Because the only one guiding the vast majority of young voters are college professors as kids cannot think for themselves.
Pretty stupid if you think about it, you can’t drink or smoke in till you’re 21 but you could vote for the most important office in the world.

Agreed in sentiment, but we really should better educate our youth. Raising the age is a pointless gesture, b/c we're simply failing our youth with mindrot and inability to critically think. Many people never outgrow the mindrot and inability to critically think, planted in their youth.

One thing we can agree on motorcycles are too dangerous for you. I can only guess you would never climb a mountain or go skydiving and most likely please try to keep yourself out of the hospital, because the biggest chance of dying from any cause it’s a medical error

Then you would be wrong. Again. I'm a superb driver. In 350,000 miles not an accident since a minor one when I was 16. The dangers are all the other atrocious drivers who can end my life or make me a paraplegic b/c they have to send a text message that's more important. I've seen the results of death, destruction, accidents, etc. It ain't pretty. I'd prefer not to be picked up in a garbage bag on the highway.

MCs cause 1/2 their own accidents. So we can conclude not the "critical thinking" group. We accept there are distracted car drivers who do serious damage to MCers in the other 1/2. Another high % of "not critical thinkers." 90k injured every year, 5k dead. Critical thinkers tend to do risk/reward analysis. I don't see a lot of that in the MCer crowd. Not saying nobody applies critical thinking, but they just do not seem to go hand-in-hand IMHO.

I've served my country, been to war 4 times in tip of the spear units, in some of the most dangerous areas of the world, I've served and did airborne ops on active duty jump status as a paratrooper, I've rappelled on cliffs and out of blackhawk helicopters, trained with explosives in the military, frequently flown over or ridden on the most dangerous airspace/roads in the world at that time, almost daily, I've rock climbed hundreds of feet in the air, flown in helicopters and aircraft countless hundreds of times including heli-boarding in the Southern Alps with inherent dangers of helicopters in mountains, avalanches (people die every year on the mountains, just this week several died in Europe), etc. "Be careful" was always advised.

Some of the mis-conceived impressions folks continue to think I'm some weakling and the continued veiled personal attacks should be re-assessed b/c you have no clue who you're engaging and making wildly nonsensical meritless conclusions. I'm not some coward living in my basement afraid to go outside, as the ad hominum attacks suggest.

The risks I've taken have been because of either extremely importance, patriotism, career, calculated risks, or unique opportunities. MC riding represents one of the most risky, and was arguably among the most dangerous activities, certainly the most foolish. I was young, dumb, uniformed. I say "most risky" because at the height of OIF/OEF, we took far less casualties than MC riding delivers, annually. Some folks are unable to calculate that but it's the reality. Literally more likely to die or suffer serious injury on a MC than at war during OIF/OEF. All b/c one wants to maintain an image. Foolishness.

In many pages, not one legit logical reason to ride a MC at the high risks of death. Not. One. Just name calling.
I've heard all the MC advocacy for decades, and it amounts to nothing other than image and fun. It ain't worth the risks. With that, I'm out, and will leave you with to those who keep riding, please "Be careful."

 

[ZeeOSix]

In many pages, not one legit logical reason to ride a MC at the high risks of death. Not. One. Just name calling.

You'll never understand that it's not your decision to make for other people if they want to ride motorcycles or do any other risky activity.
It might be logical for you to decide not to ride cycles ... but that's ONLY for you. Nobody here or anywhere else needs to give you or convince you that there is a logical reason to ride ... it's their decision for whatever reasons.

 

[KrisZ]

@leadcounsel from your latest posts it seems you assume that your experience somehow reflects the majority of motorcycle riders and you count yourself as smart for stopping the hobby, while others are foolish to continue riding. It's a pretty self centered view IMO.

You got in for all the wrong reasons, to fit in, to look cool, you were young, took many risks, never learned to improve your skillset and decision making and you think that's the case for others, it is not.
I grew up riding small motorcycles and fixing them, because they were all old two strokes. I probably pushed them more then rode I like working on them as much as riding. There was nothing cool about old, beaten up motorcycles, but I liked them.

There is still nothing really cool about motorcycles. Most ladies couldn't care less, most guys don't care either. To them there are sport bikes and the rest are Harleys.

The most thumbs up I get is from kids, so yeah my dream of looking cool in front of kids is fulfilled.

 

[alarmguy]

Agreed in sentiment, but we really should better educate our youth. Raising the age is a pointless gesture, b/c we're simply failing our youth with mindrot and inability to critically think.

That’s is the problem though. They are being indoctrinated in college while their brains are still mush.
As they mature to some degree, some of them start to question and form their own thoughts on government.
This is fact in the voting patterns as post college graduates entering their 30s

I’m not going to comment on your motorcycle posts any longer. It’s really silly for me to debate with someone who thinks no matter the subject, society should behave as they would like to dictate vs a free individual.

 

[jeff78]

In many pages, not one legit logical reason to ride a MC at the high risks of death.

The reason doesn't need to be logical, or rational. We're human - we all think and act emotionally and irrationally at times.
Those of us who choose to ride motorcycles and have stuck with it, do so because we enjoy it in spite of the increased danger and risk to life and limb. And that's all the reason we need.
Live and let live.

 

[gman2304]

82f yesterday and I rode my Harley Superglide about 80 miles on mostly two lane country roads. When I got home I changed the oil and filter with Valvoline conventional Vr1 20w50 and a K&N filter. Afterwards I got the extension ladder out and cleaned the gutters on my two story house as the weather guessers were calling for rain last night. Later went to dinner with my wife at a local eatery and had a Steak and Cheese sub with a side of truffle fries and a large sweetened ice tea with lemon. All the aforementioned activities I engaged in yesterday CAN kill! I’ll be 71 in August GLW, However I refuse to ball up in the fetal position and fret and wait on the grim reaper!

 

[CleanSump]

I don't want to eat no pickle,
Just wanna ride my motor sickle.

 

[two-up]

In many pages, not one legit logical reason to ride a MC at the high risks of death. Not. One. Just name calling.
I've heard all the MC advocacy for decades, and it amounts to nothing other than image and fun. It ain't worth the risks. With that, I'm out, and will leave you with to those who keep riding, please "Be careful."

 

[two-up]

I believe that the skills learned/practiced when riding are carried over to when operating other vehicles; from head checking/situational awareness/having an 'escape' plan/not overriding your lights/following distances/seeing road surface conditions to name a few perhaps others will add to the list-a biker does in fact make a safer driver, I don't think this can be intelligently disputed.

No tickets or at fault accidents in nearly a million miles.........

 

[two-up]

Sports Injury Statistics

Detailed information on sports injuries in children

www.hopkinsmedicine.org

 

[CleanSump]

For the last time. And literally since I won't be responding to people on "ignore" list.
There doesn't need to be a logical reason to ride a motorcycle.
It is nobody else's place to determine whether or not an adult should ride a motorcycle.
Mind your own bloody business, or as someone who crashed a glass house said; "He amongst you who are without sin...."

Since I am declaring myself King, the busybody is hereby renamed Karenlaw.
Decreed and done. Begone, all who are rumkarn.

 

[leadcounsel]

I know I was bouncing out of this conversation, but I just had to comment on this ridiculousness.

I believe that the skills learned/practiced when riding are carried over to when operating other vehicles;

First, you're not learning or practicing, it's a "live fire" event where your mistake or the mistake of someone else is a death sentence or a ticket to being in a wheel chair or eating thru a straw, plus millions of dollars of medical care. Further, you can "practice" just as well in a safer vehicle. Total logical fallacy here that I cannot follow.

No tickets or at fault accidents in nearly a million miles.........

A MILLION MILES. That's impressive. Care to break that down. That's 50 years of driving, 20,000 miles average per year. Or 25 years at 40,000 miles annually. That is one heck-of-a driving career, that is almost implausible save for a few professions. I'm genuinely curious of your profession to log such miles.

It is nobody else's place to determine whether or not an adult should ride a motorcycle.

It’s really silly for me to debate with someone who thinks no matter the subject, society should behave as they would like to dictate vs a free individual.

Again, I'll reiterate this is a complete misunderstand or mis-attribution of my position. Not once have I "dictated" behavior to anyone. If you want to engage in extraordinarily dangerous behavior, so be it. My audience is those who are able to critically think and do realistic cost/benefit analysis.

It's actually frightening that ya'll are riding motorcycles, when you cannot even interpret plain English language and argument positions. Nowhere have I, or anyone else in this discussion, attempted to dictate, outlaw, or prevent a single MC rider from riding. It's a silly debate, b/c the MC crew has no good facts. Just pure teenager emotions. The facts and stats have been presented. If those hit a nerve, then they should b/c it's very bad facts for the MC club. Just look how emotional the MC club gets when any negativity is presented. Re-read the vitriol of emotions and anger toward anyone suggesting bikes are dangerous, to include the OP post. It's a level of teenage tantrum emotion.

The reason doesn't need to be logical, or rational. We're human - we all think and act emotionally and irrationally at times.

There doesn't need to be a logical reason to ride a motorcycle.

To the contrary, one really SHOULD make logical decisions, particularly in light of weighing risk/reward when the activity in question is extraordinarily dangerous. When I was young and naive, I too thought risk/rewards were dumb. I learned to do them in the military to assess and mitigate risks, or avoid them entirely when they were unnecessary. Even doing R/R for the O-course, or simple missions, it is a helpful way to logically approach the world. I think the world would be much better if folks applied logic and reason, versus the emotional decision making.

IMO folks should make logical rational decisions and that's why we have a ability toward higher thinking. Not emotion driven decision making. It is irrational to ride motorcycles given the high rates of injuries and fatalities compared to more safer modes of transit.

However I refuse to ball up in the fetal position and fret and wait on the grim reaper!

Straw man argument, nobody has suggested this.

Mind your own bloody business,

The OP posted on a public forum. I'm sorry you cannot process how that works, but it's sorta like announcing to the world a topic of discussion and then getting feedback that might disagree. If you cannot resolve that, then don't read adverse opinions.