Base Oil Viscosity Discussion Thread

[Drivebelt]

I'll throw a few more of my numbers into the ring

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0W-30 … PAO … 5.0 cSt
0W-30 … GIII … 4.0 - 5.0 cSt … … (Group III to III+)
5w30 … PAO … 7.0 cSt
5w30 … GIII … 6.0 - 7.0 cSt … … (Group III to III+)
10w30 .. PAO … 9.0 cSt
10W - 30 .. GIII … 7.0 - 9.0cSt (?)… … (Group III to III+)

An interesting tidbit -- in the article at etrucker … they stated …

" … Chevron research compares the performance of Chevron Delo 400 15w40, made from Group II base stock, with a 5W-40 synthetic oil; oil changes were made at 45,000 miles. It shows the mineral oil performs as well as or better than the synthetic oil in fuel economy, oil condition (including viscosity) and engine wear. …"

Consider the statement " as well or better … oil condition (including viscosity)." So how does a Group II 15W- 40 match a 5W- 40 synthetic in viscosity retention? Lets look at the base oils used based on the info I provided …

5W-40 … PAO … 7.0 cSt
5W-40 … GIII … 6.0 - 7.0 cSt
15W-40 .. GII … 7.0 cSt

A PAO based 5W-40 uses same base oils as a 5w30 (has to meet the same 5W cold specifications) but just adds more VII's to raise it up to a 40 wt.

We see a Group II based 15w40 uses a 7.0 cSt base oil, the same weight -- 7.0 cSt as a PAO based 5W-40. Since both oils start with a 7.0 cSt base oil, to get to a 40 wt they will have to use the same amount of VII's to get to that 40 wt. range (12.5 - 16.3 cSt). Hence, when the VII's start breaking down (using the same VII's for both oils) you end up with the same viscosity retention ability for both motor oils.

In the case of a 5W-40 blended with Group III, the 15w40 Group II will do better for viscosity retention because the Group III based 5W-40 starts at a lower viscosity ~ 6.0 cSt to begin with, thus it requires more VII's to get the oil into the 40 wt. range. (unless you are using a Group III+). So, in this case the 15w40 Group II will have better viscosity retention than the 5W-40 GIII base oil.

So, the statement by Chevron … "as well or better viscosity retention" … makes sense based on the numbers. A 15w40 Group will match a PAO 5W-40 and do better than a GIII base 5W-40.

Cheers.

 

[bruce381]

You guys crack me up.

base oil ratios of thick or thin oils aswell as add pak and VII's ALL are important to final product. remember you need to hit a few areas such as HTHS, VIS @100 and CCS at cold end among others, So normally 2 or 3 base oils are used bunced off the VII and add pak then they are optimzed as to cost, avalability and or perfromance ALL the while meting the targets set for whatever grade/vis it is

bruce

 

[Camu Mahubah]

Soon we will have our own Bitog Specification and we will be formulating several different oils. Can you handle an order that big Bruce?

 

[Master ACiD]

is that a possibility? could we formulate our own bitog oil independant of any site sponsors or other oil marketers?

 

[Drivebelt]

Quote:

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You guys crack me up.

base oil ratios of thick or thin oils aswell as add pak and VII's ALL are important to final product … …So normally 2 or 3 base oils are used bunced off the VII and add pak ……..

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Us amateur-armchair blenders like to get our feet wet with some basic pure blends.

And we stay at Holiday Inn's the night before we have our blending parties.

 

[bruce381]

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is that a possibility? could we formulate our own bitog oil independant of any site sponsors or other oil marketers?

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You would have to buy at least 5 gal pails or drums and satifying evryones own concoction would be a problem, only way to do it is to list a bunch of additives and then blend whatever anyone wants charge a flat $100 per pail.

Biggest problem is educating on what additives are avalible and whate they do etc cause there would be a few "bad" blend I'm sure. And not to mention the "perfromance testing"
from vis to HTHS to CCS etc would be prohibitive unlesss Not done then it is just a toll blending deal make whatever anyone wants BUT gurantee nothing.
bruce

 

[Master ACiD]

perhaps we could vote on which additives we would want to include and exclude, and it what quantitys. come up with an oil of a viscosity and add package that satisfied most people?

just a thought.

 

[G-MAN]

A better idea would be to come up with a set of performance parameters and let Bruce select the additives and base oils.

 

[bruce381]

Quote:

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A better idea would be to come up with a set of performance parameters and let Bruce select the additives and base oils.

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[Camu Mahubah]

Now where to put this thread?...we have a stickies out the yin yang in the PCMO forum. We could move relevant posts from this thread to a "new" thread somewhere where it would get a lot of response. I have been thinking about an oil that meets a "BITOG" spec for a long time.

Bruce, I think we would most like to see an oil that is slightly thinner than the best 5w30s at startup yet still qualify as 30w at operating temps. We would probably need a medium additized oil as bitogers tend to change a lot. Later on we could work on extended drains. Perhaps a 0w30 with some of the best additives you have seen. Maybe not too exotic as we don't want to get to pricey. Just a good stout 0w30 and possibly 0w20 to start with. Obviously we will not have API starburst symbol or anything but I am quite sure we could come up with a good beater oil. Meaning an oil that most of us would not be afraid to run in an older non-primary source of transportation vehicle. Then after some used oil analysis we could progress to an oil that a lot of us would not be afraid to run in our everyday vehicles. We could learn a lot about base oils and additives from this experience.

I hope others see this thread and put in their

As I am all for a voting on the specs of this oil...

Bruce if we were to agree on performance parameters and such could you apply the additive package and other ingredients that meet our specs to a host of different viscosities. Say one member needs a 0w20 and another member wants a 5w40...could both oils use the same additive package?

 

[TallPaul]

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A better idea would be to come up with a set of performance parameters and let Bruce select the additives and base oils.

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Yes!

OTOH, we could just have Valvoline repackage Maxlife Synthetic under a BITOG label with the addition of a healthy dose of PAO and including a 5w40 version.

 

[Gary Allan]

TallPaul- we need to change your avatar

 

[G-MAN]

If Bruce posts back and expresses an interest in doing this I'll start a new sticky thread devoted to the topic of a BITOG blend motor oil.

 

[TallPaul]

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TallPaul- we need to change your avatar

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I love it!

Mods: feel free to act on Gary's suggestion.

 

[Tempest]

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We would probably need a medium additized oil as bitogers tend to change a lot.

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C'mon! This is BITOG!

I would love to have a top of the line, super fancy deluxe, cutting edge, highly additized/FM, no VII, GRP IV/V 0W30 that will do 15K+ drains.

 

[Steve S]

Quote:

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You guys crack me up.

base oil ratios of thick or thin oils aswell as add pak and VII's ALL are important to final product. remember you need to hit a few areas such as HTHS, VIS @100 and CCS at cold end among others, So normally 2 or 3 base oils are used bunced off the VII and add pak then they are optimzed as to cost, avalability and or perfromance ALL the while meting the targets set for whatever grade/vis it is

bruce

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One of the nice things here is that there are pros on the board that give us the inside info on many of the subjects we post. I will be in Millbrae to visit my mom .If I had time I would take you out for lunch ,but I do not have the time . Some time in the future I hope. I miss the input Tom in NJ, Filter guy and others which at the moment slip my failing mind...

 

[Steve S]

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If Bruce posts back and expresses an interest in doing this I'll start a new sticky thread devoted to the topic of a BITOG blend motor oil.

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A blend of GPIII ,IV,V and all sorts of additives in extreme numbers though not to the point of being bad . I like the idea of no vi in the Amsoil diesel marine and the 30 wt hdeo .There was an Amsoil 10w30 with out vi I used to use before the 2,000 /3000 series came out. But after seeing the results of the Chevron hydro iso oils turned me away from the syns as the way best way to go.

 

[Steve S]

Quote:

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I'll throw a few more of my numbers into the ring

…

0W-30 … PAO … 5.0 cSt
0W-30 … GIII … 4.0 - 5.0 cSt … … (Group III to III+)
5w30 … PAO … 7.0 cSt
5w30 … GIII … 6.0 - 7.0 cSt … … (Group III to III+)
10w30 .. PAO … 9.0 cSt
10W - 30 .. GIII … 7.0 - 9.0cSt (?)… … (Group III to III+)

An interesting tidbit -- in the article at etrucker … they stated …

" … Chevron research compares the performance of Chevron Delo 400 15w40, made from Group II base stock, with a 5W-40 synthetic oil; oil changes were made at 45,000 miles. It shows the mineral oil performs as well as or better than the synthetic oil in fuel economy, oil condition (including viscosity) and engine wear. …"

Consider the statement " as well or better … oil condition (including viscosity)." So how does a Group II 15W- 40 match a 5W- 40 synthetic in viscosity retention? Lets look at the base oils used based on the info I provided …

5W-40 … PAO … 7.0 cSt
5W-40 … GIII … 6.0 - 7.0 cSt
15W-40 .. GII … 7.0 cSt

A PAO based 5W-40 uses same base oils as a 5w30 (has to meet the same 5W cold specifications) but just adds more VII's to raise it up to a 40 wt.

We see a Group II based 15w40 uses a 7.0 cSt base oil, the same weight -- 7.0 cSt as a PAO based 5W-40. Since both oils start with a 7.0 cSt base oil, to get to a 40 wt they will have to use the same amount of VII's to get to that 40 wt. range (12.5 - 16.3 cSt). Hence, when the VII's start breaking down (using the same VII's for both oils) you end up with the same viscosity retention ability for both motor oils.

In the case of a 5W-40 blended with Group III, the 15w40 Group II will do better for viscosity retention because the Group III based 5W-40 starts at a lower viscosity ~ 6.0 cSt to begin with, thus it requires more VII's to get the oil into the 40 wt. range. (unless you are using a Group III+). So, in this case the 15w40 Group II will have better viscosity retention than the 5W-40 GIII base oil.

So, the statement by Chevron … "as well or better viscosity retention" … makes sense based on the numbers. A 15w40 Group will match a PAO 5W-40 and do better than a GIII base 5W-40.

Cheers.

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This would reinforce the idea of the least spread in viscosity would be best in general and the Viscosity shearing with protection for example straight 30 and a 5w30 when comparing equal base stocks. I really like the quality GPIII oils ,The Amsoil XL oils give real good used oil analysis as proof.imo. Which brings me back to my statement that you cant beat the current or previous several ratings of the 15w/40 hdeos If my memory years ago Chevron used to own their own gas trucks.If that means anything in the oil developement process.

 

[TallPaul]

There will have to be quite a variety to satisfy all needs. Short trippers will have different needs from long trippers. Cars that leak or consume will need a cheapo, but functional blend. On the high end, folks with turbosupercharged engines will want something comparable to Redline. People down south won't care about ccs and mrv. People up north will want 0w and 5w.

Maybe we should make this more user blender oriented. We can get components (base oils, add packs, etc) and folks blend their own according to instructions. Could be an interactive web page where you plug in parameters like miles driven, miles on engine, does it leak or seep, miles per month, short trip vs long trips, etc.) and at the end it spits out a formula like for example: Use the Group II base oil, Add pack C, and one pint of moly boost.

 

[Tempest]

IF Bruce is crazy enough to get into something like this, I really doubt he is going take the time to make a special batch of run of the mill 3K dino. You can go to Walmart and get Supertech for that, at probably a third of what Bruce would have to charge you.

Bruce seems like the kind of guy that likes to push the enevelope (just look a the 0W10), and if you are going to pay to make a custom oil, it might as well have top of the line ingredients since they are probably cheaper than the labor to make it anyway.