Auto manual/DSG transmission owners!!

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To anyone who owns an automated manual, like a DSG, BMW, Mercedes, Ford, etc, I've got a quick question. When you start you car off in D, how much does your engine rev before the clutch engages.
What is the idle RPM?
Do you feel your engagement point is too high/low?
Do you think your clutch will last longer with the auto setup, rather than if you operated the clutch yourself (as in YOUR own experience level with driving a manual)?
 
My Audi S tronic (BorgWarner) would actually creep forward as soon as you took your foot off the brake. Took around 4-500rpm to get the clutch fully engaged.

My BMW's M-DCT (Getrag) won't roll forward at all if your foot is off the brake, and can actually roll forward or back like a manual trans. It takes 4-500rpm before the clutch is fully engaged, but the motor revs so fast that it's barely noticeable at higher throttle angles.



The clutches on twin-clutch units are self-adjusting so they will provide a consistent feel for many miles.
 
The reason why I ask, is that these transmissions (in my eyes) are extremely cool. Maybe one day I'll own one, but just the looking at the thing, and knowing its complex structure, its almost perfect machining geometries to construct, and its mathematical computerized algorithms it must undergo to operate, in my eyes its like a fine mechanical watch complication... and I like fine mechanical watch complications
laugh.gif
 
Originally Posted By: 79sunrunner
The reason why I ask, is that these transmissions (in my eyes) are extremely cool. Maybe one day I'll own one, but just the looking at the thing, and knowing its complex structure, its almost perfect machining geometries to construct, and its mathematical computerized algorithms it must undergo to operate, in my eyes its like a fine mechanical watch complication... and I like fine mechanical watch complications
laugh.gif




They're the future, truth be told. They've gotten very reliable and surpass auto transmissions in most areas, even for non-performance applications.

As I stated in another thread here very recently, 90% of their behavior comes down to the programming.
 
Originally Posted By: dparm
Originally Posted By: 79sunrunner
The reason why I ask, is that these transmissions (in my eyes) are extremely cool. Maybe one day I'll own one, but just the looking at the thing, and knowing its complex structure, its almost perfect machining geometries to construct, and its mathematical computerized algorithms it must undergo to operate, in my eyes its like a fine mechanical watch complication... and I like fine mechanical watch complications
laugh.gif



I would MUCH prefer one over a CVT.

They're the future, truth be told. They've gotten very reliable and surpass auto transmissions in most areas, even for non-performance applications.

As I stated in another thread here very recently, 90% of their behavior comes down to the programming.
 
I dont recall on the VW TDI DCT that I recently drove, but I really didnt like the lack of useful neutral position that an MT has. It also wouldnt always shift into the gear I wanted for the speed, though going to that gear would not have caused lugging.

Im sure the fluid longevity will get better, but to pay a >$1000 premium for an ultra complex item, that then needs an expensive service every 40k miles, just is folly to me.

After driving the DCT for a bit, I eventually just gave up and let it do the shifting. There was not enough true control and benefit (or shift speed) to the DIY. IMO the shift speed was FAR faster when I let it do it by itself then when I tried to command it. So what's the point?

Id rather a DCT than a CVT, especially the stupid CVTs that make idiots who have no ability to drive an MT feel "sporty" because they can select their own "gear" in the CVT. LOL, poser is the word that comes to mind... Not that driving MT is anything beyond a personal preference based upon control feel and the ability to rolla round in neutral a bit more... But I just have to laugh at CVTs with "gears". Still, id rather have neither, save the $1-2000 in acquisition cost and the recurring maintenance costs.
Yes, on higher throttle, the shifting from gear to gear was ultra fast and smooth, which was impressive, and if one lived in the montains and downshifted a lot, that would probably be nice.

But I can get north of 160k miles on one clutch, so even if a DCT lasts as long as an MT, it will have twice as many parts to replace, which drives refurb cost up much higher, on top of intial acquisition and maintenance costs. Not sure if DCTs are lighter than ATs, but Id imagine they are somewhat heavier than MTs
 
My in-laws 2011 Jetta TDI that I recently drove creeps a bit forward when the brake is released. The shifting was a bit jolty when cold, but after that it was nice and smooth except in situations where the transmission could not decide what to do. It did not happen too often in city driving, most likely due to lots of torque available from that 2.0 TDI, but it could be a bigger problem with small gasoline engines.

One thing I noticed was that during downshifts I could definitely feel the clutch engagement. Basically the gas would be blipped by the ECU and then the clutch engaged a bit later and I could feel that. It was not anything too obvious but reading some internet accounts of "perfect downshifts every time" I expected to feel nothing. And it made me feel better about my not so smooth downshifts that happen from time to time, knowing that even computers cannot get it perfectly right. On the other hand I can get some downshifts perfectly right where the transition is not felt, but only heard from higher engine revs.
 
I have a slightly different but related question:

How slow can the DSG go while still in first? For example both by Honda and VW won't go slower than 4 (else they will stall & engine shutoff). What's min speed in DSG's first gear?
 
Originally Posted By: JHZR2

But I can get north of 160k miles on one clutch, so even if a DCT lasts as long as an MT, it will have twice as many parts to replace, which drives refurb cost up much higher, on top of intial acquisition and maintenance costs. Not sure if DCTs are lighter than ATs, but Id imagine they are somewhat heavier than MTs



But with two sets of clutches, they'll only experience half the wear.

The fluid service is not terribly expensive. The dealers charge an arm and a leg, but any indy shop can do it for an hour or two of labor. The fluids aren't cheap -- $25/L for aftermarket stuff, and typically $45+ for OEM. So yes, it's a $400ish service.
 
Originally Posted By: blackman777
I have a slightly different but related question:

How slow can the DSG go while still in first? For example both by Honda and VW won't go slower than 4 (else they will stall & engine shutoff). What's min speed in DSG's first gear?


My car's dual-clutch is perfectly happy to creep at 5mph in 1st gear. It's part of the "low-speed assistant" programming, which is very useful in bumper-to-bumper situations.
 
I have a 2007 VW Jetta with the 2L turbo and DSG.

In D, the 1st gear clutch can be felt engaging once you let off the brake pedal, and the car starts to creep. Idle rpm remains at 700-750. Creep speed is similar to most automatics with torque converter.

Driving a DSG requires the driver to adapt slightly to ensure smooth takeoffs from stop. The fact that a clutch engages to transmit torque means a sudden mashing of the throttle will not be as smooth as a conventional automatic with T/C.

I usually allow the clutch to engage before easing on the throttle. But once it gets going, the quick and precise shifts plus the no-loss feel of a fully engaged clutch makes it feel very efficient in torque transmission.

If you need to peel off from the lights, there's launch control...
 
Originally Posted By: chrome

If you need to peel off from the lights, there's launch control...


How aggressive is yours? In my S4, it was basically worthless. All the guys who went to the drag strip saw identical times with or without it. I suspect the AWD was the reason.
 
It's aggressive enough to spin the wheels immediately upon letting off the brakes, if launched at maximum rpms (~3000 rpm) and not modulate the throttle.

The clutch engagement seems very quick, so power is dumped to the wheels almost instantly. How did you launch your ex-S4 without using launch control?
 
Originally Posted By: dparm
Originally Posted By: chrome

If you need to peel off from the lights, there's launch control...


How aggressive is yours? In my S4, it was basically worthless. All the guys who went to the drag strip saw identical times with or without it. I suspect the AWD was the reason.


Even today's far more advanced units are easily beaten by a sharp driver who knows the car.

Also, please note that twice the clutches does NOT automatically indicate half the wear!!!
 
Originally Posted By: chrome
How did you launch your ex-S4 without using launch control?



Just mashed the gas...
 
Originally Posted By: dparm
blackman777 said:
My car's dual-clutch is perfectly happy to creep at 5mph in 1st gear. It's part of the "low-speed assistant" programming, which is very useful in bumper-to-bumper situations.

Okay as I suspected.
In my automatic/torque converter car I can creep along at 1-2 mph without having to worry about stalling the engine. It doesn't sound like that's possible with the computer-controlled manual shift (DSG).
 
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